How to Build a Law Firm Focused on Service, Systems, and Sustainable Growth

Law Firm Growth Podcast Episode 48: Build YOUR Dream Practice (Not Someone Else’s) with Ali Katz

Narrator: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Law Firm Growth podcast, where we share the latest tips, tactics and strategies for scaling your practice from the top experts in the world of growing law firms. Are you ready to take your practice to the next level? Let's get started.

Jan Roos: Hey everybody, welcome back to The Law Firm Growth podcast. I'm your host is always Jan Roos, and I am honored today to have Allie Katz on the podcast. So if you've been hiding under a rock for the last five or 10 years, Allie Katz is here. This is the founder and CEO of new law business model. She's been doing some really exciting stuff in this space for years.

Jan Roos: I'm somebody I personally follow. So I'm really glad to have you on the podcast.

Ali Katz: So glad to be here. Yon, it's just been great to talk to you already. And I'm excited to share what we are going to do with the folks that are here to listen in today.

Jan Roos: Yeah, I know. It was also just a little inside baseball for the listers.

Jan Roos: I had to actually stop myself on the pre call because I'm getting into some really fun topics. But I wanted to save it [00:01:00] for the recording. So totally agree with their ally. All right. So I wanted to just talk about the moment. So right now we're recording this in mid July. I think this will probably be released first week, August, but it seems as a, we're almost getting back to square one, as far as this whole opening the country thing goes, and we've.

Jan Roos: Both seen some pretty interesting things as far as what's happened in the field since then. But I wanted to talk about your experience about what happened in the first wave because it looks like we're heading into a second wave right about now.

Ali Katz: Yes. Yeah. What I would say that I saw that was really inspiring from the lawyer community is that many lawyers had wanted to go virtual.

Ali Katz: For so long they had it in the back of their mind. Okay next year. I'm going to go virtual next year I'm going to figure out how to serve my clients virtually because it's really a lifestyle decision to be able to serve your clients virtually But they didn't have enough incentive to do that And then all of a sudden everything shuts down in [00:02:00] March and we were able to get our lawyer clients virtual Really in many cases that same month we got into action.

Ali Katz: They were more inspired than ever They were force incentivized to get virtual and many of the lawyers who are implementing the new law business model and their practices were ready they had everything that they needed in place to be able to make that shift very quickly and Several of them had their best months ever During the pandemic and that was something that really It just really showed me that when we focus and we're clear on our next steps and we take action Really the impossible becomes possible and that's really what i've seen during this pandemic.

Ali Katz: I've been more inspired and on fire than ever before

Jan Roos: Yeah, it's interesting too, because there have been some examples of people. We had a great episode a couple of weeks back with an estate planning attorney, Jeff Katz, who, same thing in March, I called this guy up. He's dude, honestly, man, I've had the biggest month ever.

Jan Roos: But I think in addition to having the [00:03:00] preparation, there's also a big mindset component. And I feel like even there, there's some situations too, because it seemed like for a while, and there's a lot of people that were, the virtual stuff was getting out there in the zeitgeist, but even with all the tools in place, I feel like there were some people that just either were too reluctant to take advantage of it or thought that they couldn't do it.

Jan Roos: Or what do you think really separated the people that were able to double down on this? I guess from a mindset perspective, based on the people that didn't make it forward.

Ali Katz: Yeah. I would say that the key aspect there is that the lawyers that we serve who already, you Had a high value service For estate planning or strategic business council services were the ones that were able to make this transition the most quickly right because otherwise a lawyer who is doing wills and trusts and Maybe in the more traditional practice model, they're really focused just on documents.

Ali Katz: They don't actually really see what they do that's different than the Dave Ramsey Online Will service, which is being advertised constantly now. [00:04:00] It would be much more difficult for them to make the transition and actually really to believe in their practice model. Because how do you differentiate yourself from a set of documents when you can't actually differentiate what you do from a set of documents?

Ali Katz: And so one of the things that we've been doing for many years now at new law business model is helping Lawyers to really understand what it is that they offer to their clients Why what they offer is worth three to five thousand dollars on average for a basic foundational level estate plan or For a more advanced plan in the 7, 500 to 15, 000 range and how to talk about that in their community.

Ali Katz: So if you've got a service that you know is worth 3, 000 to 5, 000, that is not competing with the 399 will plan or the 150 set of documents somebody can get online. Now you've got not only the incentive, but you've actually got the financial resources to be able to do it as well. You [00:05:00] know that all you need to do is get your message out there into the community and be able to serve people virtually.

Ali Katz: And you've got a great practice.

Jan Roos: Yeah. I want to dig down into that a little bit more as well, because you just mentioned a couple of things that people might not have caught. So it really is such a positive feedback loop sometimes, because if you think about it on some levels, there's people that are racing to the bottom.

Jan Roos: And then what does that mean? Got people that have to serve more clients and they probably have less time. They're probably more. They have less to put back in the kitty. But when you have the situation where it's something you want to work for, and it's like the wind under your sails, right? It's if somebody gets down to it, it's like, Hey, do I, I want to call those extra five people that I've been putting off for forever.

Jan Roos: If there's a 15, 000 pot of gold at the end of that rainbow. A little easier to take the first step, right? And then as far as like kind of that's also something too I mean you've worked with a lot of different estate planning attorneys over the years as far as the situation And sometimes we run into this when we're talking with different practices But there's people that seem to be stuck in this mentality of hey look I'm, not one of the big guys across town.

Jan Roos: I've made this [00:06:00] more efficient. This takes me less time So i'm only going to charge a thousand dollars or fifteen hundred dollars What would you have to say to people who were stuck in that loop? You

Ali Katz: If you're stuck in that loop, then I think you don't really understand what you are able to provide to people in your role as a trusted advisor to clients.

Ali Katz: And really what you need to understand is the value that you bring is not just in the documents. So if you are just delivering a set of documents to people, you might be right. It might be the case that your service is not worth more than a thousand or fifteen hundred dollars And in that case you are going to have a really hard time competing with the big firms You actually need to change the way you think about who you are and what you do as a lawyer And you also do need to be providing something different So I came up with this whole model when it really started when I was in law school I didn't know anything about anything at that point.

Ali Katz: I never even imagined that I would be an estate planning lawyer, frankly. I thought I was going to be a, maybe a divorce lawyer, help [00:07:00] people to resolve conflicts. I thought maybe I'd be a criminal prosecutor. Those are the directions I thought I was going in. But in law school, turned out I loved my tax classes.

Ali Katz: Marty Ginsburg was my tax professor, Ruth Bader Ginsburg's husband, and he was just incredible. And it turned out I was really good at it. And then I graduated first in my class from Georgetown. And so I ended up being able to go to one of the best law firms in the country, Munkertals and Olsen.

Ali Katz: And I They don't have a divorce law practice. They don't have a I couldn't be a criminal prosecutor there And I really wanted that six figure paycheck because I had never made a lot of money growing up So this was like a big deal for me And so estate planning and corporate tax is where I got recruited into And when I had been in law school, my father in law had died and he had an estate plan He had spent three thousand dollars on that estate plan with a law firm in florida Specifically to keep us from having to deal with his ex wife And from having to go through the court process.

Ali Katz: And then he dies and we're in the court [00:08:00] process. We're dealing with his ex wife, but I'm thinking in the back of my head, what is going on here? This lawyer must've committed malpractice for sure. But I, again, I don't know anything from anything. And so fast forward to, I met one of the best law firms in the country.

Ali Katz: Charlie Munger's law firms. He's Warren Buffett's personal lawyer. And here we are doing the exact same thing that. Law firm in Florida had done. We're basically creating documents for people that I know because of my father in law's experience are not going to work when the people in the family die, when the clients die.

Ali Katz: And I'm a new mom myself. At that point, I had my baby during my clerkship, my first child during my clerkship. And I'm sitting here thinking to myself, there's something very wrong here. We're charging people a lot of money. Four estate planning documents that I know are going to fail. What is going on here?

Ali Katz: I thought that lawyer committed malpractice. This is not malpractice. It's common practice. So I start [00:09:00] interviewing lawyers across the country to find out how do you do things and one after another what I end up hearing is it's the same everywhere. The lawyers are not actually creating or providing value beyond what somebody could do for themselves Especially today now or 20 years later Especially with the technology today and I realized that I needed to leave The big law firm because I really couldn't change the system there I needed to leave the big law firm start my own law firm and create something That would actually provide value to the people I was serving That would actually fill in the holes that I saw in the estate planning process So that when my clients became incapacitated or died Their family would stay out of court their family would stay out of conflict Their kids would be taken care of in the right way by the people They wanted not left in the care of strangers or anyone that they didn't want because the holes in the plan And I needed to create a model around it because the traditional law practice model would [00:10:00] not properly allow The lawyers to get paid to provide this kind of a service, especially not at a thousand or 1, 500.

Ali Katz: You cannot provide a plan for somebody that is going to work when their family needs it. If you're not charging enough to provide that plan.

Jan Roos: Yeah, I guess it all comes down to what kind of resources are you really allowing yourself to spend time with people. And to your point, it's like in a lot of ways, having documents in place that don't work for a family is worse than not having any documents at all.

Jan Roos: I heard this old thing from this is a joker was like, I'm not going to mention the state, but there's a particular state that a lot of the times the joke is like basically the most important part of the document when an attorney signs you a will is when they have their contact information, the last page, because when it comes up time to do the probate and they're going to charge another 10, 20, 000, that's what all it comes down to.

Jan Roos: But yeah, that's the thing too. It's I think there's a lot of people that kind of devalue their services because if we want to talk about stuff financially, obviously that's going to be different state by state, but can you really put a price? on what it's like to make sure that your family can have a good [00:11:00] Thanksgiving.

Jan Roos: Cause if you have the situations, whereas people are going through probate or it's not improperly done, that's just such an awful situations for so many people to go through.

Ali Katz: Yeah, it really does come down to. Lawyers, I believe, go to law school to make a real difference in their clients lives. That's why I went to law school.

Ali Katz: And then they come out of law school with this kind of twisted reality around money, around the service they provide, and in many cases, people's view of lawyers is appropriate. The negative reputation that lawyers have in the world is appropriate because in a way of what happens. To us during law school is the only thing that I can make sense of because I could feel that it happened To me in coming out of law school.

Ali Katz: I was no longer thinking about how can I make the most difference in my client's lives? I was thinking about how can I make the most money? How can I be at the best law firm? And I really needed to unwind all of that to come back to the [00:12:00] heart of service that I went to law school from And then reshape my practice Really recreate a new practice model based on that heart of service based on How do I actually need to create my practice in such a way that I know?

Ali Katz: That the service that I am providing to my clients is meaningful That it's going to make a real difference in their lives and that it is worth it for them For my clients to pay me that 3, on average, or even the 000 on average, if I'm doing a more advanced plan that has asset protection or long term care planning built in, that sort of thing.

Ali Katz: So it really does start with The lawyers really believing in what they're providing and then being able to structure their practice in such a way That they're able to be able to deliver on that service and do it by the way while being able to have a great life at the same time because that was the other piece when I was a Lawyer at the big law firm.

Ali Katz: I was commuting an hour [00:13:00] each way in la traffic I was spending 10 hours outside of the house away from my baby and my husband And once I got pregnant and went through maternity leave with my second child There was no way I could go back to that life I had to find a way where I was going to be able to be the kind of mom That I wanted to be and be the kind of lawyer that I wanted to be as well And that just really required a whole new practice model because there was nothing out there that showed me how to do that And it was crazy to me on that I remember walking down the hall and in my office after i'd started my own practice and thinking to myself I can't believe that I need to create all these systems from scratch I can't believe that there's no plug and play system where I can learn how to And just do it.

Ali Katz: I have to figure out how to do all the pieces in addition to being a great lawyer. And I committed to myself at that moment, probably 15 years ago now, that I was going to create a system that would make it possible for lawyers [00:14:00] to love their lives, love their law practices, make a great difference in their clients lives, and make a great living while they did it, so no lawyer again had to reinvent the wheel.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's awesome. It's always great. A lot of the best products always come out of scratching your own itch. And I actually hadn't heard that part of that story. So thank you so much for sharing it with us, Allie. We're moving towards this I think the concept of the personal family lawyer.

Narrator: Yeah. So

Jan Roos: I wanted to ask as far as the different practice areas of law, it looks like a lot of this is geared around this Family planning, proactive business planning and family planning sounds like some sort of wellness clinic. So maybe not, that's not the right word, but what would you say about people who maybe they had a little bit of a background or like a different background?

Jan Roos: Cause I think if I recall, so it's basically, you had the estate planning from that big firm that you were working with. But what do you think about the people out there that have been litigating for personal injury stuff or doing family law for a little while and maybe they're getting sick of it?

Jan Roos: What would you say to the people out there? Do you think this is a path that everyone can go to?

Ali Katz: It's interesting. I do. If it takes commitment, it takes [00:15:00] hard work, but the good news is that all lawyers are used to that. We made it through law school, we passed the bar, and given that kind of drive and ability and brains our intelligence and our ability to do hard things, we've already proved that to ourselves.

Ali Katz: So if a lawyer has that kind of commitment, and by the way, that's the kind of commitment it takes to do anything well, then yes, you can absolutely do it. Absolutely. Make a transition from any practice area that you're in now. Most of the lawyers that we are transitioning out of other practice areas are coming from criminal defense.

Ali Katz: We've got a lot of criminal defense lawyers for some reason, prosecutors, criminal prosecution. We've got a lot of lawyers who come in. To us from immigration. I'm not entirely sure why that is a lot of lawyers who are doing immigration and don't want to do immigration work anymore for one reason or another And then we have a lot of lawyers who are second career lawyers.

Ali Katz: So for example A woman named [00:16:00] irene. She was a nurse for 30 years And she went to law school because her husband had been a lawyer And then he became a health care executive because he hated practicing law. He had gone out on his own hated it But she decided she didn't want to be a nurse anymore. She didn't want to be in the world of health care She went to law school after being a nurse for 30 years.

Ali Katz: She dipped her toe into the water of being a lawyer actually Didn't like it either and went back to health care and then she came across us and what she found is that She was able to build a practice serving the families in her community with the same heart that she had as a nurse Interestingly enough once she did join us and learn to practice in the way that we teach her husband ended up Leaving the world of being a healthcare executive and joining her in the law practice and now they practice together and they love it We have an another guy who?

Ali Katz: Somewhat similar. He was a flight paramedic And wanted to get out of that line of war went to law [00:17:00] school and then right out of law school second career Ended up joining us and loves serving the families and business owners in his community And then there are a lot of estate planning lawyers who were doing estate planning What I call the old way and I actually find in some ways it's a little more difficult For lawyers who have already been doing estate planning the old way to make the transition Because they have to let go of old habits that they've already created and unwind those habits But one of our lawyers who did that recently she said all the things that have been on her to do list It's not like lawyers haven't estate planning lawyers haven't thought of wanting to do this You They're smart.

Ali Katz: They know that they want to make a transition. They know that their law practices aren't working the way that they're set up now. And she said all the things that were on her to do list to make shifts in her law practice are finally getting done because she doesn't have to go it alone. She doesn't have to come up with all of the ideas on her own.

Ali Katz: And so it is really a wide spectrum. [00:18:00] What it takes is that mindset of commitment I want to use my law degree in a way where my law degree truly becomes my highest value asset I want to provide a high end service to people in my community Not just for the wealthy people, by the way The lawyers that are implementing the new law business model in their practice are not serving the ultra high net worth families That is the work of the big Law firms for the most part.

Ali Katz: If you are a ultra high net worth family, you either have a family office or you've got one of those, monger tolls and Olson type firms, you actually can get a good service if you are working at a big law firm that you're ultra high net worth because you have the money. To pay for that kind of service, but we're really about serving the everyday Families in our communities that are going to get stuck in court and conflict If something happens and giving them a whole new experience of estate planning so that people Really start to see [00:19:00] that estate planning is not just about going online and doing a will or trust In fact, it's not even just about planning for what happens after you die It's about being a better parent You During your lifetime, a lot of the clients that I worked with in my own private practice, after we had our initial meeting, would say things to me like, wow, I did not expect to have that kind of an experience with a lawyer.

Ali Katz: I feel so much relief. I feel so good about myself as an adult, as a human being, as a parent now. Because of this process that you've just taken, And that's just after the first meeting. So lawyers can really start to shift their thinking about the role that they play in the lives of the people in their community.

Ali Katz: It's not just for the super wealthy, and especially now during this time when there's so much uncertainty. People need to now more than ever be in close connection with the people that they love, with the resources that they have, [00:20:00] and understand how to be making great decisions about the use of those resources.

Ali Katz: And that's really what lawyering, when done right, in my opinion, can help people to do.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's awesome. And it's interesting too. I want to drill down on a couple of things there. One of the things that I think is really refreshing about your approach is that the ability to take a package for three to 5, 000 and sell it to an ordinary people.

Jan Roos: I think a lot of attorneys have this concept that it's not something that they can do. So I want to just take a little quick quick story. So we work with a firm that does flat fee billing and it's a really interesting program. It's like lifetime support, but basically I think They'll basically charge 6k to whoever walks in the door.

Jan Roos: And the head partner told me we've had people that have a hundred thousand dollars in net worth that are happy to kick 6, 000 of that over to getting their assets protect. And we've got people that are worth a ton. There's a family ended up coming in that was worth 11 million and it was the same price.

Jan Roos: But there's also people that have come in and actually it was huge. Super wealthy people that price gouge. So [00:21:00] what do you guys, and if no, no worries of this is close, if this is secret sauce, but as far as getting people to communicate the value, what do you think are the major levers that people want should be leaning into as far as selecting the right kind of people and conveying that their service is worth at a three to 5, 000 that they're asking for.

Ali Katz: Yeah, so I really believe that it starts with a systematized intake and enrollment structure, right? So what you're saying about the law firm that you're working with that has this lifetime plan everybody pays the same thing six thousand dollars They've created a system and a structure That they really believe in they really believe in and my guess is that they've got a very systematized Intake structure and structure for moving people through the process that feels personalized To the person coming in right?

Ali Katz: It's got to feel very personal to the person coming in But it is systematized to the lawyer To the law practice so the lawyer and the law practice are able to [00:22:00] provide the same experience To every single person that's coming in a very systematized way but that it feels to each person that's coming in that they are treated completely unique That their specific circumstances are taken into account and that they're going to have a plan that ultimately works for their family all of that takes Systems to take systemization and in the beginning I was very resistant To systemization.

Ali Katz: It was very resistant. i'm a free spirit kind of gal I'm extremely creative and I have this belief that well every client that comes in is different Oh, but i'm different. My practice is different. This is different. That's different But the reality is that business is business And there are certain systems that you can create in your practice like your client did You That allows people to have this personalized experience but gives you in your practice The efficiency of systems and when you can build those systems And then you can convey those [00:23:00] systems to your clients in a way that they feel Totally taken care of in the process So one of the huge things yan that I would see In my practice for example is that people would come in and meet with me and they'd actually already met with another lawyer They thought That they had started the process of estate planning with this other lawyer.

Ali Katz: But then they never heard from the lawyer again. What happened? What happened from the time that they went in to meet with this lawyer till the time that they came in to meet with me? Probably what happened. Is that they had to? Think about it And that lawyer didn't have a system in place for following up with those people who had to think about it in a way that kept Them moving forward now.

Ali Katz: This is a very small thing except that lawyers are losing tons of business Because they have no system for following up with the people who come in meet with them and have to think about it That's just one of the systems. So when lawyers [00:24:00] are able to build systems that have That keep people moving forward.

Ali Katz: I mean if you think about it, nobody wants to really think about incapacity and death Nobody wants to acknowledge that they're going to maybe one day become sick and not be able to make decisions for themselves Or they're going to die And so our job as lawyers is to support people and meet them where they are whether they're in that phase of just getting educated about estate planning or Realizing, yeah, I've got this been on my to do list for so long that helps people move past inertia, past procrastination to actually get it done and then is able to meet them with as much support as they need to actually get it done, but in A very efficient way, in a very efficient way.

Ali Katz: And for the lawyers to realize that you are not getting paid for however many hours you spend with a client or however few hours you spend with a client, what you're getting paid for is the outcome. You're getting paid for the [00:25:00] outcome of them having a plan in place that is going to work for their family when they need it.

Ali Katz: When they become incapacitated or when they die, that's what you're getting paid for. And if you can make that transition from thinking about I'm getting paid for documents to I'm getting paid to help people actually put in place a plan that is going to work. And then you create your systems to allow for that so that you could trust those systems.

Ali Katz: That's when everything really starts to shift.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And as far as like the whole process of getting into systems, like you have a really unique perspective as having worked with so many people getting them through this new law business model. What would you say are like the most common challenges that people end up having to overcome when they're, we're going into the process of getting these systems implemented in their law firm?

Ali Katz: I would say that the biggest challenge that lawyers have to overcome when it comes to getting systems in place in their practice is knowing where to focus, knowing where to focus. So a lot of lawyers [00:26:00] are. Focusing on marketing and getting clients before they are even ready to convert a lead Somebody that's interested in their services into a paid client at a high enough fee that allows them to deliver a great service and I imagine that you see this all the time because I think people are coming to you for marketing support and They're not actually ready They're not ready for marketing support because you can do all the marketing in the world for them And you can do great marketing for them But if they don't convert their leads into paying clients at high enough fees They've just wasted all that time and money on marketing and that takes systems And so I think that most lawyers are looking for the wrong solutions at the wrong time And what they need to be looking at first is in my opinion.

Ali Katz: First of all, do I have a high value service? That I really truly believe in if so, then you're then that's step number one Do I have a high value service that I truly believe in if not? You need to get a high value [00:27:00] service that you truly believe in that is not build on an hourly basis That is not going to be based on too low of a flat fee for you to be able to provide a great service for you to be able to Know that you're going to be able to deliver on that service because if you don't believe in your service You're not going to be able to serve clients very well, or you're going to get horrible reviews.

Ali Katz: Nobody wants that. That's number one. Number two is once you've got that high value service that you believe in, it's not time to market yet. Still. Instead, it is time to focus on your intake and your enrollment structure. Because if you go out there and you're networking or you're out there doing speak engagements, you're doing paid ads.

Ali Katz: All of that is going to be wasted energy because you're going to be generating all this interest. And then all of your leads are going to fall out and end up going with your competition because you've now educated people. You've now gotten people thinking about your service, but you don't actually have any way to move them into hiring you.

Ali Katz: And only about, I can't remember what the number is, but I, I've heard some statistics on this, but like [00:28:00] 12 percent or 7 percent of people are ready to hire you the first time that they meet the rest of the people that you meet. 93%, let's say, are, they need to hear from you consistently over a very specific period of time.

Ali Katz: Sometimes that might be two, three, four years. Sometimes that's two, three, four months. Whatever it is, those people need to be hearing from you consistently. And if they're not, they're going to go hire the guy or gal down the street. We call that marketing for your competition. So if you don't want to be marketing for your competition.

Ali Katz: What you wanna develop first is an intake and enrollment process and a consistent communication process so that you're effectively following up with people, ideally on an automated personalized basis consistently, until they're ready to come into your intake and enrollment process. And your intake and enrollment process needs to be structured systems.

Ali Katz: In such a way where in my opinion 90 or more of the people that you meet [00:29:00] with hire you 90 or more of the people that you meet with hire you At the average fees that we're talking about here at the average fees That are going to allow you to provide a great service in our case three to five thousand dollars for your basic planning Seventy five hundred to fifteen thousand dollars for the more advanced planning.

Ali Katz: Let's say you're meeting with 10 people a month You And that's a two hour meeting and only half those people hire you you've just wasted a huge amount of time energy attention and money when you really want to get that up to a 90 Level of engagement by the time somebody comes in to meet with you if they don't hire you There's something wrong with your intake and enrollment process.

Ali Katz: You got to get that fixed Once that's fixed once you have a great intake and enrollment process You have a service that you totally believe in and can deliver on Now it's time to go whole hog on paid marketing on networking on everything that you're going to do to fill that pipeline [00:30:00] because some people are going to fall out of that pipeline in month one.

Ali Katz: Some people are going to fall out of that pipeline over the next five to 10 years if you are consistently communicating with them. And the key here. After my 20 years now in business, the key here that I've learned is you are always in this dance. You're always in this dance between creating capacity to serve clients And then filling your pipeline to your capacity And then expanding your capacity and then filling your pipeline to your capacity So you're always dancing between marketing and client service until you hit the place to have the exact law practice that is the size you want it to be that gives you the life you want to have and the money you want to be earning.

Jan Roos: Yeah. So first of all, I couldn't agree more about the importance of intake. I actually, this is something I've been mulling over for a little bit, but it's I was thinking about this concept of if you want to look at, And this could be pretty much in any vertical like okay, so who has the best customer service you walk into an apple store [00:31:00] Versus one of those like t mobile shops down the street who's going to have a better service It's probably apple store and they're the highest market cap there I think if you were to look at if you were to secret shop every estate planning firm in a given market I would bet dollars to donuts.

Jan Roos: If the one that was the biggest didn't have the best intake process, the one that had the best intake process will be the biggest firm before long, because that really means that they can get the juice out of whatever they get. I think that's super important. Something that I haven't thought about, which I think is really important, which has just brought up their alley is that it's easy to talk about, just grit your teeth and always be closing and that kind of thing, but ultimately before you're able to sell anyone on your services.

Jan Roos: You have to sell yourself And I think it's really important to have that kind of a confidence in what you're able to offer And I really couldn't agree more So as far as just on the on following on that concept of scaling up a practice and and goals So I know a lot of people have this Vision of running a seven figure law practice.

Jan Roos: I know, you've helped a lot of people get there But what do you think is I think [00:32:00] i've found some sometimes and this has just been with people that we've worked with It's like a lot of the times people they like the idea of having a seven figure law practice But oftentimes they're not really willing to do the work of having a seven figure law practice So how can people really get honest with themselves about what they want as far as goals?

Jan Roos: And how do you get there after you determine that?

Ali Katz: Absolutely, I think that this is one of the most important conversations we can be having actually because not everybody should have a seven figure practice. Not everybody should even want a seven figure practice. I built a seven figure law practice and I found I don't actually want that.

Ali Katz: I did not want a seven figure law practice. Practice, but I had to build it in order to know I didn't want it And I think that lawyers don't have to do that anymore We've actually identified three different practice models that most lawyers will want to create and if you can identify Where you want to go and then build backwards, you'll know what is the biggest risk to lawyers It's not [00:33:00] focusing on the right next step the second biggest risk is thinking that they're building something that is not the thing that they should be building so the three practice models that most of our lawyers fall into is The first one is what I would call I used to call it the work from home pro today we're all work from home pros.

Ali Katz: So it's more of the true solo You The true solo model you don't want to manage a team you really want to work virtually for the most part That's why we called it the work from home pro and but the key here is you really do not want to manage a team You're willing to manage some outsource folks, but yet you don't want to become that kind of a leader You don't want to make the kinds of investments that you would need to make in order to build the systems necessary To really serve a team in that case At least in our practice model, your number of clients that you can serve, new clients on an average basis, is going to be about six, six to eight new clients a month.

Ali Katz: Eight is really pushing it depending on what [00:34:00] size, what sort of outsourced support you get. In that case, you can have a six figure law practice. If you get really good at what I would call free marketing, the networking online or offline. And you're able to fill your pipeline and get your six to eight new clients a month just from that and then you're going to Have outsourced folks and you can have you can keep six figures In that case you can keep around 100 120 000 a year in that case.

Ali Katz: That's one practice model It's a great practice model for some folks now a lot of lawyers think that in that case, they're going to have a lot more free time They might think that's a part time practice You That is actually not a part time practice Because when you think about all the marketing that you have to do the free marketing because you can't really afford necessarily to pay for marketing Although depending on how efficient it is, so you might correct me on that yan in that context You're going to be spending a lot of time Networking in your community talking to people and that just takes up a lot of time and then [00:35:00] you're going to be doing a lot Of the things that you don't want to hire other people to do because you don't want to have a team So then the next practice model is what we call our part time law baller model.

Ali Katz: I love this model It's 12 to 15 hours a month. It's a team of two and a half to three people. You're going to be bringing in about six to 700, 000 a year, and you're going to keep about 250, 000, 300 of that. Once your systems are built. Now, are you going to keep that the first year you make six to 700, 000?

Ali Katz: No, because you're still investing in creating your systems. But once your systems are running and going, that's what you're going to keep. And you're able to do that. Part time going into your office just three and a half days a week just three and a half days a week Now with that model the challenge with that model is you're not going to be able to take off two to three weeks At a time with that model right because you're the lawyer And you've got staff, but you're the lawyer.

Ali Katz: And so you could go into your office just three and a half days a week. You could take a [00:36:00] bit, one, two week vacation a year, but you couldn't do that regularly because that practice is still dependent on you, but it is dependent on you on a part time basis. The third model is the seven figure model now the seven figure model obviously requires the most investment to build It requires you to step into your leadership at a whole nother level because you're not just at that point Leaving a team of non lawyer staff, but in order to have a really successful Seven figure practice in my opinion.

Ali Katz: You are going now to want to start to bring in other lawyers Not necessarily as associates that you know You've got a big payroll that you got to be responsible for but as of council attorneys where you're doing fee sharing Arrangement with them that really incentivizes them to build their own book of business and use the back office Support systems that you've created and where you really do become that rain maker And it might be that you're not even seeing clients on a one to one basis anymore, right?

Ali Katz: So that's what ultimately ended up happening in my practice Is that [00:37:00] I built the seven figure law practice took me three years to do it and I'm not I was able to go into my office just a few days a week in that practice because I had Other attorneys that were seeing all the clients and then my team was taking care of those clients I was really able to focus on my role as a rainmaker at that point, right?

Ali Katz: And I wrote the best selling book on legal planning for families and I was doing all this presenting in my community So I was bringing in most of the business into the practice But what I found for myself is that I first of all back at that time I did not know how to manage the financials Of that kind of a law practice In fact, I had to build another million dollar business and once again get overwhelmed by the reality of not knowing how to manage The financials of that business to realize and learn what it took to manage the financials of a business Now i'm major expert on it, but it did take me actually after building two million dollar business Businesses going through bankruptcy because I collapsed under the weight of not knowing how to manage my financials So in order to have a [00:38:00] seven figure law practice You need to learn how to manage your financials and you need to learn how to manage and lead people I had no idea how to manage and lead people.

Ali Katz: So here I am thinking i'm this great boss. I'm this great leader Meanwhile, I was the worst I had no idea how to be a leader because nobody had ever taught me that Now looking back with the knowledge and experience I have now of what it takes to manage Financials and what it takes to be a leader.

Ali Katz: I probably could have Loved my seven figure law practice and really let it run as a business. I didn't know how to do that back then That's you know something that we now pass on to our lawyers who really do want to have seven figure law practices but the person you need to become The kind of leader you need to become the way you need to handle the challenges and the roadblocks and the investments I mean you think about it.

Ali Katz: Here's the thing that I think a lot of lawyers don't get In order to have a seven figure law practice, let's say you're just making a million dollars a year. You have to be writing checks [00:39:00] for a minimum, probably a 500, 000 a year or putting it on your credit card. So you've got to become somebody that can invest Five hundred thousand dollars a year in marketing in hiring in leadership and development in being able to provide the Services in dealing with that team member who didn't show up for work today And now you what are you going to do?

Ali Katz: How are you going to fill in the gap there? That's the person you need to become in order to run a seven figure law practice and that's not for everybody

Jan Roos: Yeah, and also it's really interesting too because it seems like you've really delved into the pros and the cons of this. And a lot of the times people and if they're, I don't want to say entitled but probably misinformed yeah, you know what, I want to take vacations whenever I want.

Jan Roos: I don't want to have to deal with anybody on a day to day basis. It's the thing is, you can have anything that you want. You just can't have everything that you want at the same time.

Ali Katz: And you have to really know what you want. So I have another company, it's called Eyes Wide Open [00:40:00] and I created that company after my bankruptcy because I needed to know how to make my own legal insurance, financial and tax decisions with my eyes wide open, and I did not know how to do that.

Ali Katz: I had to learn it the hard way. I had to make over a million dollars in mistakes to to do that and learn how to create, we'll be back to systems again, learn how to create systems to even know what I wanted and then to build from that place. And one of the tools and resources that I created through there, it's called the money map.

Ali Katz: And the money map allowed me to look at all right What is the reality of how much money do I actually need to make how much money do I actually need? To make personally and take out of my business And how much time do I actually really have right my kids now are 17 and 20 but when they were Much littler I did not have as much time as now I have a lot more time than I did then and so how do I structure my practice goals my [00:41:00] business goals My hiring goals so that they're actually in alignment with the life that I really want to create and of course That changes over time that changes over time And so one of the things that i'm really committed to actually is to teaching the lawyers that we serve How to help people This is not just an inquiry that lawyers need to be in.

Ali Katz: Of course, lawyers need to be in the inquiry for themselves. But I want lawyers to be able to help people in their communities to be making these kinds of decisions for themselves, especially if they're serving business owners. There's so many business owners that go into business with this idea that success is a million dollar business.

Ali Katz: And I can tell you from my own experience, that is not what success is. Now today, I have a company that earns five million dollars of revenue this year, and I think that eventually will go to ten, twenty, a hundred million. That is not what success means to me. Success means to me that I have enough time energy and attention To be able [00:42:00] to focus on my family And the projects outside of my businesses that are truly really important to me And to live my life in a way that feels in 100 alignment now in order to do that I only need to make enough money.

Ali Katz: I only need to make enough money The only reason that 5 million dollars a year Is because we actually need that in order to be able to serve our lawyers, right? so If you don't need a million dollar practice in order to be able to serve the number of clients that you want to serve because that's what feeds your soul, then I would say do not build a million dollar practice.

Ali Katz: Build a high six figure practice that lets you take home 250, a year. That's a really nice sweet spot. But don't get in your mind this idea that oh I need to have a million dollar practice in order to be successful Only build that million dollar practice if having that million dollar practice gives you the life that you want Because maybe you don't actually want to see 12 to 15 new clients a month months in and [00:43:00] months out every month running through the same script because that doesn't Feed your soul that doesn't actually light you up for me If I was doing the same script 12 to 15 new clients a month every month for the rest of my life.

Ali Katz: I that, that doesn't work for me. That doesn't work for my personality type. For some lawyers, that's perfect. That's what they want to do. They love that. And but for other lawyers, they want to be out there in their communities. They want to be connecting with people. They want to be on TV.

Ali Katz: They want to be doing presentations. They want to be doing books. Great. That's great. That's when you should have a million dollar law practice.

Jan Roos: Yeah. And just coming full circle, I think it's really like a lot of people tend to think about the tactics or even if they're a level below or a level, a level above in that point, thinking about the strategy of how they want to get what they want.

Jan Roos: But I think it's all of that really is, For not if you're not thinking about why you want to get there and then like that You know The worst thing ever is getting to the end of your goal and realizing your ladder was leaned up against the wrong [00:44:00] wall So a little bit of deliberation before you really think about what you want is you can potentially save people what?

Jan Roos: Years decades even years I

Ali Katz: mean it would have saved me Honestly, if I would have understood how to make those analyses, it would have saved me 10 years of my life from 46 now and I probably spent 10 years of my life hitting every metric of success that I was told was the one I was supposed to Be going after and I did only to get there each time and realize oh That wasn't it oh, that wasn't it.

Ali Katz: That's ultimately why I let go of everything back in 2011 12 timeframe. I said, forget it. I did it all and none of it was it, I got the fame on TV, I wrote the best selling book, I built a million dollar businesses and oh no, this isn't it. So I'm going to try going in the other direction. let go of everything I created, moved to a farm, filed bankruptcy, said I'm out of here.

Ali Katz: Now, what [00:45:00] happened is when I was there at that kind of what people would consider a rock bottom moment, I realized that there was a whole different way To make these decisions and that's what I now teach through my eyes wide open work And it's so funny because now 10 years after that was 2012 Almost 10 years after that 8 years.

Ali Katz: It's funny. I'm just starting to do tv again And now i've got this big 5 million dollar business And it's from a completely different foundation There's very rare moments now where I say to myself What the heck am I doing? And why am I doing it? Because I built it from the foundation of knowing Who I am Why i'm here and what's mine to do and so I really invite all of you As lawyers you went to law school for a reason you went to law school for a reason.

Ali Katz: I believe for some of you went because you didn't know what else to do with yourself That's fine Sometimes that happens but many of you went to law school because you really [00:46:00] wanted to make a difference in people's lives You wanted to be an advocate for people and then you came out of law school and you didn't see a way to make a great Living and have a great life You And make a difference for people and it's possible That you became willing to sacrifice Really the purpose that you went to law school to begin with and you know my invitation today And especially during this time of pandemic and uncertainty is to get back to that.

Ali Katz: Why? Get back to that. Why? Why are you here? What truly is yours to do? And how does your law degree serve that? And how can you create a law practice that is the right size law practice for you with the systems that you need to serve the people in your community in a truly meaningful make a difference way?

Ali Katz: If that is truly what you want.

Jan Roos: You know what, Allie, I would love to continue this conversation, but I do not think I can top that as a high note. So I'll say I get towards the end of our time. If people have been [00:47:00] listening to this and they're liking what you're saying, what would be the next step for anyone who's interested?

Ali Katz: Your next step, if that is you. If you truly do want to use your law degree in a way that makes a difference real difference in your client's lives Whether you've been doing wills and trusts for years in a way that you know Isn't really fully in alignment for you or has you thinking that maybe you can't really charge enough to build a practice that is making a difference in your client's lives or allowing you to have A great life and income yourself or you're in another practice area and you're ready to make a transition Into using your law degree in a way that is truly meaningful to your to you and the people in your community Then I would encourage you to go to newlawbusinessmodel.com

Ali Katz: com and you can either watch one of our webinars there or even better, book a call with a law business advisor who will help you to look at, is this the right practice model for you? Do you truly want to serve clients in the way that we teach and are you committed to doing the hard work that will be necessary for you to do that [00:48:00] knowing that probably right now you're working hard anyway?

Ali Katz: So why not put that hard work into something that's going to allow you to build a life in law practice? You love a lot of practice. You can sell one day or that you can practice in for the rest of your life and love every step of the way.

Jan Roos: All right. Awesome. And then, yeah, for anyone interested, absolutely go ahead and take that next step, but Ali, whether it's if people are hearing This this message for the first time or whether it's a reminder I think it's so important to think about why people do things and be really meaningful So thank you so much for taking the time to share it with us today

Ali Katz: You are absolutely so welcome And I will say one thing is we did talk a little bit about the money map I do have a free resource, called the money map for lawyers I took that work that I did through eyes wide open and created A version that's just for lawyers that I just remembered about now called money map for lawyers and you can get that at money Map for lawyers.

Ali Katz: com And start to go through this process and look at some of these questions for yourself as well [00:49:00]

Jan Roos: All right. Awesome. We'll get that in the show notes for everyone listening. Thanks for that as well yeah, it's been a great episode and for everyone else. We will see you next week at 8am Eastern on Tuesday at The Law Firm Growth Podcast.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Growth Podcast. For show notes, free resources and more, head on over to casefuel.com/podcast Looking forward to catching up on the next episode.