Leveraging Online Communities For Law Firm Success

Law Firm Growth Podcast Episode 14: Marketing That Drives Case Files Vs. Shiny Objects with Gyi Tsakalakis

Last week we discussed the breakthrough of writing a book on workers compensation with Michael Bell.

Narrator: [00:00:00] Welcome to the law firm growth podcast, where we share the latest tips, tactics, and strategies for scaling your practice from the top experts in the world of growing law firms. Are you ready to take your practice to the next level? Let's get started.

Jan Roos: Hey, everybody, welcome back to the law firm growth Roos, and we are here today with Guy Sokolakis.

Jan Roos: Thanks for being on the show, Guy. Jan, thanks for having me. This is gonna be fun. So Guy has a super interesting and diverse resume that is focused within the legal marketing world. So for one, he is the co founder of AttorneySync, an agency that's been working for the last, you know, decade plus in the legal space.

Jan Roos: Quite an impressive feat. Guy's really involved with a couple of interesting communities in the legal space as well, including Maximum Lawyer on Facebook and Lawyer Smack, a Slack channel. And then finally, he's also got some pretty interesting investments in the legal marketing technology space.

Jan Roos: So a lot of places to go in this conversation, but I'm super [00:01:00] excited. So Guy, kind of gave the high level intro, but would you mind telling us a little bit of the background story of how you got to where you are today?

Gyi Tsakalakis: So I started out many, many moons ago as a I was a trial, like young trial lawyer.

Gyi Tsakalakis: I was enamored by being in court. I probably watched too much law and order. I did that for a few years and then my business partner approached me about doing something in lead generation for Lawyers and so 2008 we officially found attorney sync more primarily as a lead gen company But there were all sorts of issues with paper lead back then and so us being a small company We're like we can't fight this fight.

Gyi Tsakalakis: So we pivoted just more to general agency services, so Mostly focused on search management, but you know, we build websites. We call it the necessary evil You got to have a website, but a real strong suit is in search marketing We've been doing that for about over 11 years. And then we also founded a second agency that's outside of legal But it's still it's mostly paid media management and it's funny looking back From the time that I was [00:02:00] practicing We're talking about this in the in the pre show, you know, I was told so many times by lawyers, you know Oh, well, you know my Clients would never use the internet to hire me and although that's become less of a conversation that i've been having you still hear it Once in a while and I think this dovetails so nicely into this idea of these online communities Because you know in so many ways we think about it We're like, oh my god, the world has changed so much But at the end of the day in this context, we still tend to hire people.

Gyi Tsakalakis: We know like and trust It's just that How we have the conversations like that's what's really changed.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's interesting. And one of the things, I mean, the span of, of the agency career, especially is you know, the last 11 years have been pretty eventful in the world of internet marketing. And it's, you know, it's kind of tough if you're not a professional that's doing this across the country for a number of different companies, firms, whatever.

Jan Roos: It's kind of tough to figure out who's really got the juice because at any given time you've kind of got the up and coming thing that may be less proven. You've got the things that's in kind of the strike zone right [00:03:00] now. And then you have the stuff that people are talking about that you should have gone into 10 years ago.

Jan Roos: So yeah, it's, it's interesting between your perspective and running the agencies and all these different groups, what do you think is kind of the trend of what's going really well right now for legal marketing?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, I think that for me, the, and I'm not the only person, there's people way smarter than me that think about the internet and Global communications, but one thing that's really resonated with me is that we're going to go through this great period of filtering and so in the past when it was just pure Wild West, you literally could put a free consultation call to action up and you're the only game in town or you want a few games in town and people Would call and now people are getting a lot better at sussing this out You know a lot of our clients are plaintiff's attorneys And so they're shocked by the number of potential clients that call them up and say hey, you know I'm considering you and four other firms and you know, they're all top plaintiff's firms But that's a new [00:04:00] experience for a lot of attorneys.

Gyi Tsakalakis: It's really the past 10 15 years That's changed and a lot of that is because of the internet and communications technologies because now people have the access which they didn't have before. So, you know, if you didn't know a plaintiff's lawyer, like, maybe you get a referral from somebody other, you know, your accountant refers somebody, or maybe you know someone in your community.

Gyi Tsakalakis: But now you can literally go on Facebook and say, Hey, does anybody know any good planet flares and you're going to get like a ton of responses. And so the consumer now is in control. And so it doesn't matter if you're a professional service provider or you're selling t shirts or whatever. There's going to be a lot more filtering going on in the companies that Are actually building quote unquote brand equity and loyalty and trust like they're the ones that I think we're going to see emerge And so, you know, I think of it as like the great consolidation.

Gyi Tsakalakis: That's kind of what I predict will be the next big wave

Jan Roos: Yeah, it's interesting because you kind of see like the consolidation used to happen at a different level I've, I've spoken to like, this happens sometimes when you talk about people that have, you know, been really [00:05:00] relying on, on traditional marketing back in the day.

Jan Roos: And it's like, you know, the yellow pages was the only game in town if you're talking about like, you know, late is, and that was the consolidation and there's a price tag for it. But now, you know, even if you get to the point where, you know, you've got your social media page set up. You know, you put a lot of work and you've got on that first page of Google now, you know, it's like you got that situation where, you know, you're one of 10 and that that's, you know, you're, you're at the table, but you're not bringing the chips home necessarily.

Jan Roos: So, you know, this might be a pretty big open ended question, but how do you see the best firms differentiating in this kind of consumer driven world today?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, that's what's so funny is, is like, it's almost in that respect, it's so full circle too, because it's going to be those traditional notions of positioning and standing out like classic marketing 101 stuff that really makes the difference.

Gyi Tsakalakis: So, you know, you have to be able to stand out. You have to do something, you know, we do this exercise all the time where it's like, what do you do differently? Or what's your unique value proposition? Or why are you uniquely situated to help? The clients that you help [00:06:00] and what is that audience that you're actually looking for?

Gyi Tsakalakis: And of course the response is anybody with significant injuries and it's like, okay, so see you're not quite grasping the concept of Authenticity rules the day in my experience humanizing the firm So, you know the lawyers that have embraced Letting their personality show through the lawyers that are embraced letting some of their hobbies show through their pet projects The causes they're passionate about and you know, I think one of the challenges is, you know, so many lawyers will say well You You know, I don't want to disenfranchise them, you know, if we're not if we're not into the same political ideology like what happens when they're not going to hire me and i'm like The trade off there is that you're vanilla, right?

Gyi Tsakalakis: So you're everything to everybody means you're nothing to nobody So the chance sorry about that rant, but the chance you directly the lawyers that really focus on the things that demonstrate their knowledge skill and experience They're still focused on delivering great Service to their clients, but they're building relationships.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And so it's those traditional notions of marketing client [00:07:00] development referral networks That They're still all here, but now the places that those engagements go on are not necessarily in like over the phone or in the yellow pages or in the neighborhood. They're happening online.

Jan Roos: Gotcha. Now, as far as getting this story kind of out to people, you know, there've been a lot of things that have coming out in the last couple of years.

Jan Roos: You know, we see more and more people that are, you know, investing into stuff like video. I feel like every other site that I'm going on has, some sort of a chatbot connection. What do you think is really working today in terms of kind of humanizing and getting that ongoing relationship for people with the clients?

Gyi Tsakalakis: You know, anything can work for somebody. And then some things like don't work very much for anybody. And the kind of the sweet spot there is you've got to start with defining your objective and defining what success looks like. And that's where I think things are lost because people will say, Oh, well chatbot.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Like, great, now my intake is completely automated. And it's like, well, have you ever used your own chatbot? Because it's actually worse than just [00:08:00] having a form. And so, any technology that can support demonstrating your, how great of a lawyer you are, how you treat clients, or the service that you provide, making things easier for your next clients and your existing clients.

Gyi Tsakalakis: If you think about it in that lens, then it's just a matter of making choices and doing implementation that actually supports that end versus saying, you know, this is what it's pure shiny object syndrome. It's like, you know, I get emails now, people are like, Oh, do you think we should be on Tik TOK? And I'm like, well, fit into what you're trying to do online.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Right? Like maybe, but what are you doing? And it's the same thing with video. And it's the same thing with everything else. You know, I can get the phone calls. Hey I need SEO. And it's like, do you, do you even know, like, what do you think you need? It's like, well, someone told me I need to be, I don't know, I want to get all this free traffic from Google.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And it's like, well, you know, what's your budget? What's your what market are you in? All these questions. So I always look at it kind of backwards. It's like, who's your target audience? What's your budget look like? What are the priorities for you? How have you, what's your current client development strategy look like?

Gyi Tsakalakis: And [00:09:00] then let's fill in the gaps with channels and technology to support that.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's interesting. And honestly, that's kind of a roadmap that seems probably the opposite of what most attorneys are encountering these days. So, you know, you either get the new whiz bang channel coming out of your news feed, you get the new whiz bang person cold calling you or drop an email in your inbox or you name it.

Jan Roos: And then basically, you know, it's kind of like, you know, it's kind of tough to to suss out how these things go. But I'm kind of following on that. It's obviously a pretty complicated landscape. And we've kind of talked to some structure to kind of building that out. But You know, let's just say blank slate.

Jan Roos: If we got somebody you know, maybe they're a really successful solo. They're looking to kind of make the transition from maybe having that referral based practice to something they can really scale. What do you think is like the order of operations to figure it out? I guess, you know, then we could either go into specifics of channels or, you know, strategy type stuff.

Jan Roos: Like how would you have that person go about trying to develop a good presence in the market?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Great question. So you know, and again, this is hypothetical, but let's just for the hypothetical, let's say the solo [00:10:00] has a client, a former client list, has some good relationships, has a, a strong offline reputation.

Gyi Tsakalakis: So they're, you know, they're a go to person in the community. Well, step number one is, is to make sure that you're taking all of those offline relationships online. So whether that's, and again, you got to, there's more nuance here than just like, you know, Abroad like I'm gonna say something or like, oh, yeah, like I roll but obviously Looking to see if those people in your community that are your referral sources.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Are they active on linkedin? Are they using facebook both as a personal and professional? Platform, where are they online so that now? That offline relationship, you're taking that to the web and then you know, deciding if it's a local person, like maybe there are local networking groups on these platforms that you can be involved with.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And so starting to spread the word of your services and you know, knowledge sharing and demonstrating your experience in those local groups, that's kind of the starting point for me. So it's not even like a major strategy [00:11:00] shift. It's doing the things that have worked for you in the past. Referrals, relationships, reputation building, but making sure that you're not limiting those relationships to seeing people face to face, having to take them to networking dinners, meeting at professional organization events, like all those things are great, but start taking that online too.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And the other thing too that I tell people is to be like, Oh, I'm, you know, a busy trial or I don't have time for this. It doesn't take that much time to just invest in. Liking what somebody posts that you have a relationship with or commenting on or engaging it or you know Sharing some kind of update in that's relevant to what you do in those groups That can be like a 5 10 minute thing.

Gyi Tsakalakis: You can I always call, you know, say, do it in the small time So, you know, you're waiting at motion call or you're at lunch you're commuting not driving, but maybe you're taking so but those are the times I think you get a lot of value out of those relationships But that's where I would start because if I say this to you You You need to dive into Google ads.

Gyi Tsakalakis: It's like, you're going to blow money. Like Google makes it just so easy to [00:12:00] open an account and so hard to connect the dots to return on ad spend.

Jan Roos: Yeah, I couldn't agree more on that. So many times we'll end up running into somebody who's just absolutely, you know, the making a vampire cross. You mentioned the word Google.

Jan Roos: But yeah, that's the thing. I mean, they make it easy. It's easier. Well, I'll leave it at that. So as far as kind of like the mindset stuff, do you have any sort of like resources that you point people to? Because I mean, I feel like a lot of this, there's obviously the execution stuff that people can either try to do themselves or get some help with.

Jan Roos: But it sounds like a lot of this stuff is kind of coming from a place of like strategy and mindset. Is there anything that you could recommend to somebody who's looking in to get into this? Like resource wise?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Kind of the buzzword here to me is like inbound, right? So now it's been switched to content marketing, but the places I would start if you're just brand new to this, certainly HubSpot, I mean, they kind of coined the inbound term.

Gyi Tsakalakis: They have legal specific examples, too. I know there's been a uptick in lawyers using HubSpot, and so they have some case studies up there with [00:13:00] examples like the type of content and offers that lawyers are using to build lists and nurture campaigns and participate socially. You can't go wrong with Moz, M O Z dot com, classic.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Marketing, you know, not their software, but they have a great community. They've been sharing great inbound information, but I'll tell you, everyone too, if you're going to get into beyond that, if you actually want to get into more searchy type stuff, the Sterling Skies local SEO forum is really great.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Sterling, Joy Hawkins and Sterling Steyer are great, just local SEO resources, but people don't realize that if you're a small solo, small law firm, brick and mortar. You're in a consumer facing practice like PI or criminal defense or bankruptcy. The traditional notions of SEO, like there's some overlap, but you really are talking local SEO there.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And so things like Google, my business profiles, local link building, making sure your happy clients are seeing your praises online, because those are the things like, even if. If someone gets your name from one of these online communities we're [00:14:00] talking about, or they get your name because they were referred because you're at a baseball game, and someone's like, Oh, you got to talk to so and so.

Gyi Tsakalakis: More and more people are gonna go look you up online. They're gonna search on your name. And consumers have an expectation to be able to find information about you. And a big part of that is what your other clients think about you, which gets into testimonials. And like you said being able to see you on video, what it's like to work with you.

Gyi Tsakalakis: That's the kind of stuff that really matters to motivate those people to actually consider contacting you.

Jan Roos: Yeah. Can I ask you something, gee, like this is something that a lot of the times, this is all stuff that intuitively Yeah. People would say sometimes, and this is kind of the, the, what you mentioned earlier where this sort of being like an eye roll thing.

Jan Roos: Do you guys have take any numbers as far as. Have you ever had any situations where you've been able to quantify what the effect of getting this in place for clients are, whether that be, you know, the volume of, of intakes they're getting or they're getting or anything like that.

Gyi Tsakalakis: This is the 300 pound animal, whatever one you want.

Gyi Tsakalakis: That's a challenge because so our [00:15:00] best clients, so attribution is a huge part, you know, we're, we offer our services month to month. So that means we're accountable every month to communicate the value of what we do on behalf of our clients. And so. There's a kind of a spectrum here. The ideal situation is.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Are we have a sophisticated client who's got a CRM where they're tracking fees all the way down to, you know, we're using UTM parameters. So we have fees, we've got lead records, we've got UTMs, we've got, we're using call rail for dynamic number insertion. So we can do like specific channel analysis all the way down to the ad copy, if it's paid media, yada, yada, yada.

Gyi Tsakalakis: So that's the ideal situation. And that way you can do an analysis and say, Hey, we spent this much on this campaign. This is what it generated. Let's do more of this or this one didn't work. Why didn't it work? Let's iterate. So that that's how it's supposed to work Right, you invest in advertising and marketing you track that the great part about The internet is that it's all I always like to say it solves wanna makers riddle.

Gyi Tsakalakis: You actually know which part of your Marketing spend, advertising spend is [00:16:00] actually tied to fees. Now, the problem is that that's a very small segment of the legal landscape, right? A lot of lawyers, and we're talking about this in the pre show too, a lot of lawyers, even on the more sophisticated end, like, maybe they're using practice management software, maybe some of that has some decent tracking, but most of them don't.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And then there's huge swath. You know, we'll have these conversations and we'll say like, what do you use to track your cases and fees? And they're like, what do you mean? I've got a red rope, you know, I've got a file. Okay. And so then they want to fax us. You know, okay, so I'm not, I'm not inputting this into data.

Gyi Tsakalakis: So the point being that, so that was kind of a roundabout way of answering is like when we can measure it, when we're tying it to fees and cost per client or tying it to some kind of other business objective, you know, obviously there are other types of campaigns besides just, Return on ad spend type of campaigns, you know, some people want to build awareness Some people want to do other stuff or get people on email [00:17:00] nurture list but tying it to specific objectives in advance That's where all of a sudden people have this eureka moment.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Like okay, I get it now versus What most people are experiencing is, well, my traffic's going up, but my phone's not ringing or, you know, the marketing people are like, Oh, well, we got you 10, 000 likes. And it's like, who cares? Like, can you pay your rent with likes? Yeah. We start with the concept of, we want really tight attribution, return on investment, return on ad spend, where that's out of our control.

Gyi Tsakalakis: We fall back to things like cost per lead and cost per phone call. And hit targets there and then in worst case, and we've been more and more reluctant to even enter into these relationships because we know where they're going to end up is when you get into like, well, we're going to track organic traffic in your whatever your state level or depending on what kind of location you're in, maybe it's at the city level, growth and organic traffic and tied to some kind of analytics goal like, A contact form fill or a live chat request.

Gyi Tsakalakis: The problem, of [00:18:00] course, there is, is that we can see those numbers go up, but there's no qualifying data. Like, we can't optimize on the back end to the ones that are actually turning into fees because we don't have visibility into that.

Jan Roos: Yeah, and like, ultimately, even if they don't think it's about fees you know, if they're paying month to month, it's, it's gonna be about what they're collecting.

Jan Roos: And like, so gears a little bit, you know, this is the kind of the conversation that it's easier for somebody that is a professional and it's like, you're allowed to kind of follow along, but I'm sure it's kind of been a bewildering array of topics for for people who might be a little less sophisticated.

Jan Roos: So kind of switching gears into the communities a little bit, tell us a little bit more about how that's been going and you know, how it's, I would probably say it's a pretty good intermediate step for somebody who might be looking to dip a toe in the water, but not necessarily hire somebody outright.

Jan Roos: All

Gyi Tsakalakis: right. Yeah, exactly. And so again, like if you're familiar with the traditional notions. Of reputation relationship you're talking about, you know, take max law con the maximum lawyer facebook group So these guys one's a plaintiff's attorney tyson and the other one [00:19:00] jim is a immigration attorney meeting lawyers like that that are digitally forward are creating these spaces for other lawyers to Have conversations about what's working and referral networks and I'm taking those relationships both to they actually have an in person conference as well as a Facebook group.

Gyi Tsakalakis: I'd start to look for groups like that and it doesn't even need to be like lawyers, right? So local groups like you, you know, if you go on Facebook, you know, if you're well Let's assume that you have the sophistication level to be able to use Facebook So you go to Facebook and you search for a group like i'm in Chicago So like maybe I'm interested in I don't know we'll say steakhouses in Chicago.

Gyi Tsakalakis: So, you know, there's a Chicago Steak group like best steaks in Chicago or something like that. I don't know Go in there and start meeting people and having conversations, you know, those traditional note, like people are missing out on that because I think that one, we have this general sense of like, well, Facebook's total waste of time, and it's designed to make [00:20:00] me addicted and yada, yada, yada, all these bad things, and there's a, you know, vitriol and all that stuff.

Gyi Tsakalakis: I think that's absolutely true. I mean, I struggle with that question every day, but, and this is kind of what we're talking about as well with this great filtering and the next consolidation is. The private groups, a lot of that noise is filtered out and those groups are moderated. So, you know, if you're a jerk, or if you're saying hateful things, you're going to get bounced out of the group.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And so I think that that is a place where you don't have to be super sophisticated, but if you understand the basic concepts of relationship building and professional networking, You can take them into these groups, apply the same kind of thinking, and you'll benefit greatly from it. And it's a much more efficient because, again, now instead of having every time you want to do some networking, you have to go somewhere, you can do it from your phone while you're sitting, well, maybe not in all courts, because I know some judges frown upon that, but we'll say, you know, sitting on the train.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's interesting. And another thing too, it's like, I mean, there's the networking angle, but there's also kind of the informational one, you know, if you're getting in a group of lawyers, I might be an awesome [00:21:00] place to get some cool tips. But the other thing to kind of, I, I remember the story, I actually heard this on a, on another podcast this guy was talking about a gentleman who was selling women's jewelry at a yacht show.

Jan Roos: And, you know, that's kind of the effect that you will, cause it's like, you know, obviously these people have money, obviously they're spending it. So, you know, if you're dropping, you know, 200, 000 in a boat, you can probably pick up a bracelet for the misses. But you know, if you're the lawyer in the steakhouse group, you know, you're probably the only game in town.

Jan Roos: And if you're just a cool guy or, and you know, whatever that happens to be that people are into, it's always kind of a natural way to do it.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, and that's the thing. I think also, you know, back to what we were talking about earlier with the authenticity, like, you know, people can smell the fake, right? So like, if you're in the steak group and you're really, you're vegan and you're in the steak group, what are you doing in here?

Gyi Tsakalakis: But if you're really passionate about like steak or whatever it is, that resonates with people that, you know, it's like finding your people, right? And you know, in an ideal world, there's an overlap between your people and your target audience. And when you find that, it's great because like you said, you're a known.

Gyi Tsakalakis: [00:22:00] Likeable, trusted person in the group, those people are gonna be more inclined to refer to you. And so, it's a lot of that traditional stuff, but now we're just taking it online.

Jan Roos: Alright, awesome. So Guy, is there anything that I should have asked that I didn't ask you in this interview so far?

Gyi Tsakalakis: The next step beyond kind of just the general networking, these communities that we're talking about, I tell everybody, I'm like, if you do nothing else online, if people look you up online, part of your consumer, your client base, your referral base is going to be people looking up online.

Gyi Tsakalakis: You've got to spend time with Google My Business. It's free. But that is, you know, for better and worse, we all pray at the altar of Google. So that's the most likely place that people are going to go look for information about you. No, there's an expectation that people can find your happy clients, seeing your praises in testimonials.

Gyi Tsakalakis: You can use video now in Google, my business. So, you know, you gotta [00:23:00] make sure that it's complies with your state's rules and everything like that. But posting a client testimonial. In video on your Google My Business listing is really effective to help your clients marshal the evidence of your reputation, as we like to say, the other thing that I would recommend a little bit more of a pro tip use UTM parameters on your Google My Business listing links because you can actually track and search console the traffic you're getting the visibility you're getting from Google My Business independently of your website.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Same thing with call tracking numbers. I know this has been a A big local SEO thing over the years with nap consistency. And so right now my best practice is use a call tracking number as the primary number, use your real local number as the alternative number. It'll show your call tracking number in your Google, my business listing, but tracking phone calls to my business.

Gyi Tsakalakis: People are so surprised. They're like, Oh my gosh, like this is a place that. A lot of action is happening and you know, some of it is referral sources. Some of it is just people that are searching [00:24:00] for lawyers. Some of it's going to be other people that are maybe trying to contact your firm in other ways, but call tracking UTM parameters in Google.

Gyi Tsakalakis: My business get happy clients to go post testimonials on Google. My business. It's almost more important than having a website.

Jan Roos: Yeah, I actually those some of those tips, I'm gonna probably have to recommend those. I mean, a lot of my clients listen to this episode right now, because we've actually first time hearing of the video testimonials on Google, my business and also the call tracking numbers in the Google, my business has been a big deal.

Jan Roos: Yeah. Bugbear for us historically. So that's a, that's a really, really good tip.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And again, because, you know, people look at their Google, my business insights, which is trash data, but even at best the calls that are reported in the Google, my business insights dashboard, they're only mobile click to call. So if someone looks at your, you know, they search for you on a desktop and call that number, That's not getting reported in your Google My Business Insights dash.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And so it's like way under reporting. And so people devalue the importance of it, but do a search on a [00:25:00] lawyer's name that has a Google My Business and look at the real estate that comes up for Google My Business listing.

Jan Roos: Yeah. Those are super powerful stuff, Guy. So yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Jan Roos: This has been a really great conversation. As far as people wanting to kind of take a next step, what would be if, you know, if anyone's interesting in reaching out to you or sort of things, how can people get in touch?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, I'm active on Twitter. So I, you know, maybe the personal branding gurus will frown upon this, but I use my real name for all my handles.

Gyi Tsakalakis: So it's https://gyitsakalakis.com/, if you just search G Y I T S a and just start searching, usually Google figures it out, but people should feel free to reach out to me there. They can reach out to me on LinkedIn. You can go to https://attorneysync.com. We try to. Stay abreast of all the latest and greatest and legal technology stuff in terms of marketing and whatnot But twitter if you want to have a conversation anybody if you're in chicago, and you're not a mean person I'd be happy to meet up as well All right.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Awesome.

Jan Roos: Well, thanks again. That was you know, it's super great information If anyone wants to follow up feel free to go ahead and reach out. So for everybody else This has been another episode [00:26:00] of the Law Firm Growth Podcast. I'm your host Jan Roos, and we'll be back next week.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to the Law Firm Growth Podcast.

Narrator: For show notes, free resources and more, head on over to https://casefuel.com/podcast/. Looking forward to catching up on the next episode.