How Innovative Information Products Can Revolutionize Law Firm Operations and Client Relationships

Law Firm Growth Podcast Episode 45: Scaling Your Profitability Without Scaling Your Hours (or Your Staff) with Moshe Amsel

Narrator: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Law Firm Growth podcast, where we share the latest tips, tactics and strategies for scaling your practice from the top experts in the world of growing law firms. Are you ready to take your practice to the next level? Let's get started.

Jan Roos: Welcome back to The Law Firm Growth podcast. I'm your host as always, Jan Roos, and I am here with we just realized the first repeat guests of The Law Firm Growth podcast, Moshe Amstel. Thanks for coming on, Moshe.

Moshe Amsel: It's my absolute pleasure, Jan, for having me. Thank you. And I am honored to be a repeat guest on your show.

Moshe Amsel: And I hope to show up many more times because I think that there's so much happening in the legal industry and my mission when I, it's not my overall mission, my mission is bigger than that. But my mission, when I went into the legal industry, Was to be different, to find the things that are people are just doing because that's what they've seen.

Moshe Amsel: And that's what they've been told and question those [00:01:00] assumptions and say, okay, what can we do differently? I started with the financial side of it, but so far it's been quite a ride. And one of the First things I did was I questioned this conference thing. Like everybody goes to in person conferences.

Moshe Amsel: Why is there not an online event that can be more accessible, easier for people to attend to? And that's, I think the last time we spoke was about The Law Firm Growth summit. I don't actually remember what our interview was about. That was a very chaotic

Jan Roos: couple of weeks.

Moshe Amsel: But yeah, so The Law Firm Growth summit was the first really successful virtual conference for attorneys.

Moshe Amsel: And now we're having this conversation and look at the timing in December. I ran this event and now everything is virtual, right? Because of COVID. So we really, we established a precedent in the legal industry that started to question the norms. And that's what I'm doing. We have an event coming up now where we're pushing this hidden revenue stream.

Moshe Amsel: That law firm owners are missing, and it's all about implementing and creating information products in your law firm that can really boost your [00:02:00] results. It can help you in your intake. It can help you in serving a bigger client base. It can help you in the impact that you want to have on the world.

Moshe Amsel: And I think that's, that's why you wanted to have me on here was to talk about that. And I think it's just another example of questioning how we're doing things and why we're doing it. And attorneys are notorious for. The billable hour. And we, obviously we're, there's a lot of talk about getting away from that.

Moshe Amsel: There's contingency, there's flat fee, but ultimately it's all trading your time for money. It's doing, and how many people can you, do you have the capacity to serve in your firm? And what if you want to serve more than that?

Jan Roos: Yeah. How do you do that? And you've done a really good job of doing the segue for me, I guess I was going to ask, I thought it was super fascinating and then it's I'm always really interested in when people are pushing the boundaries and it's interesting.

Jan Roos: So in the space that you and I run a little bit more, we run service businesses that work with attorneys, but we're a little bit more exposed to some different business models perhaps. So there's people that have info products. There's people who have, Productized [00:03:00] services, but yeah it's something that's always been in, in the space that we run in, but something that might be a little bit foreign to attorneys.

Jan Roos: I know some people might be throwing up a, the immune system what, anyway what should I be doing with an info product? I'm an attorney. So like just by and large, I know there's a couple of different types potentially, what kind of, what are the kind of products that people are thinking about?

Moshe Amsel: The easiest one to understand. And see how it would fit is a course, a digital course that teaches somebody how to do something or how to navigate something. And that course can be positioned as a alternative to your service, as a pre empter to your service, or even as a post service opportunity.

Moshe Amsel: So let's, I'll throw some quick examples out. Let's say that you're a. So before somebody is bankrupt, they struggle with debt. They took on too much debt. There's a period of time where they can't make their bill, can't make, can't pay their credit card statements. And they [00:04:00] start to get these phone calls and it's only when they can't handle the phone calls anymore or they had legal action taken against them that they're showing up in your office.

Moshe Amsel: But if you move one step back and address their pain point before. They need your services, you suddenly open yourself up to a much larger pool of candidates that you can serve and you can have a greater impact. You can help people avoid bankruptcy. Now that sounds counterintuitive. You're a bankruptcy attorney.

Moshe Amsel: Why would you want to help people avoid bankruptcy? Why are you doing what you're doing? You're doing it to serve people. You're doing it to help them. The reality is that even if you, for every hundred people that you teach how to avoid bankruptcy, There's going to be a failure rate, right?

Moshe Amsel: There's going to be 10, 15 percent that fail and they're going to turn around and need your services. So if you become the educator, a step before to help them, who are they going to use when they need a bankruptcy attorney? You suddenly position yourself as the go to person for them to go to. They're not shopping.

Moshe Amsel: To see who's the cheapest. They want to use you because they've [00:05:00] already learned from you. They already have an affinity with you. They already have a connection with you. So the first thing is before preemptive to your service, you can position a product that's going to solve the pain point that happens before they come to your office.

Moshe Amsel: What is the thing that happens a step before solve that, sell it, and you'll, you can sell. Way more than you would your service. You do it once you produce it once, and then you just keep selling the same thing over and over again, and then a percentage of those students end up becoming your clients and you can probably eliminate all the marketing you're doing in your firm and just market your course, because everybody is going to come from your course into your firm will be busy.

Moshe Amsel: And you're monetizing, you're making money on that front end as well. That's example number one. Example number two is an alternative to your service. Bankruptcy is not a great example for this because I don't know if you could do your own bankruptcy, but maybe you can. So the best example is DIY, right?

Moshe Amsel: If you, if somebody says, Hey, I don't want to pay a bankruptcy attorney. I don't want to spend 1, 300. I'd rather do it myself. You can take, have a course that you teach somebody how to navigate the bankruptcy system, what forms to fill out, how to fill them out. [00:06:00] What do they have to do to present it?

Moshe Amsel: And maybe you sell it for 500 bucks or 700 bucks instead of your 1, 300 service. And for somebody who it makes sense for it, they'll do it as an alternative. The better examples are the more expensive services. So let's say. Estate planning, where maybe you have a course that teaches somebody how to write their own will, but then peppered into the course.

Moshe Amsel: You have all of this information about why they might need a trust and why a trust, they definitely want to use an attorney for, so yeah, they get this DIY kit for doing their will, but a large percentage of those people are going to say, Hey, I fall into this category of needing to do a trust. I really need to hire an attorney.

Moshe Amsel: Boom. They come to you and you can even say, Hey, if you come to us, we're going to discount your fee. With the course costs. So if you spent 1, 500 or 1, 000 for this, create your own will course, we'll take that thousand dollars and parlay it into your services. When you come to us and say, Hey, I need a full state plan with a trust and everything.

Moshe Amsel: So now I have a five, 5, 500 fee, but I get a [00:07:00] discount of a thousand bucks because I already paid it for the course. Now it's only 4, 500. The affinity to use you and they have a discount. It's a slam dunk. So you got the clients coming in through there. Last thing is, Hey, I served my client and now I'm done serving them.

Moshe Amsel: What's their next pain point. And another example, we'll go back to bankruptcy for a moment. So after somebody is bankrupt, what is the biggest pain point for them after the bankruptcy? Getting their life back on track. How do they rebuild their credit? Boom. Teach a course, have a course on, and there's a better example.

Moshe Amsel: Like you can have recurring revenue because you can create a subscription model, which is the next step of, above course as a membership where they're paying you month in, month out, and all you do is provide a community or provide support or provide ongoing training that you do a training once a month or something like that, or a Q and a.

Moshe Amsel: And people can come and then get their questions answered. They get the guidance that they need, and then they want to stay there because until they've, they're out of that pain point. So until they've completely solved that problem, they could be there for seven years, right? It takes that long for it to come off the [00:08:00] credit.

Moshe Amsel: So you can take your expertise in the industry and you can provide just another way for them to access you in mass where you're doing the work once and you're getting it, you're getting it out to hundreds or thousands of people. And what that does is. It creates another revenue source for you, which could be huge because we could talk about those numbers might look like.

Moshe Amsel: So it creates another revenue source for you. It creates a new lead source that could become your potential only lead source. And it also creates a opportunity to elevate the impact that you have in the world. And that's, ultimately people, that's what we want, right? We want to change the world.

Moshe Amsel: We want to do something, even if it's just to change our own business model. Personal life that would change the world for our family. We want to change it for somebody. And you can't do that if you're not throwing off. Extra cash from your business. If you're not, if you're not, if you don't have a highly profitable law firm, you can't significantly change your family's experience in life.

Moshe Amsel: And if you don't have enough people [00:09:00] going through your law firm, you can't impact that many people. A single attorney will probably impact maybe a thousand or 1500 people throughout their entire career. As far as, moving people through the law practice, you can do that in a year with an information product.

Moshe Amsel: You can put 1500 people through your information product in a year. There's no capacity limitation and you can have a significantly bigger impact. So I think it's, the idea is that it, it hits on all the pain points that attorneys have, that law firm owners have. Yeah. How do I get leads? How do I find people that are not, I'm not competing with my competitors for, like, how do I get them so that they're not even looking at my competition?

Moshe Amsel: How do I make money on them and not have it be tied to directly our results? How do I elevate my impact? All those questions are answered with one simple solution.

Jan Roos: Yeah, so anyway, we got the scalability, we got the profitability and just to bring it back down. I know a lot of people might be listening to this and saying, that, that sounds like really awesome.

Jan Roos: And I definitely will say that this is the first time I've seen [00:10:00] a real effort to popularize this idea, but they have been a couple of people. It's not just pie in the sky. There have been people that have actually doing it. And I think you mentioned that you have a couple that are coming on the summit as well.

Jan Roos: If, if you got one or two of the people just to put it into reality and make sure that this is. This is something that people can actually do.

Moshe Amsel: Yeah, absolutely. So Joey Vitale is one example. An interview that I did with him is already out on our podcast. Cross pollinate here, the profit with law podcast episode one zero five is an interview I did with Joey Vitale and he has a trademark practice.

Moshe Amsel: He has a very specific niche that he goes after, which by the way, if you're going to do an information product, this is a perfect place for me to tell you that you absolutely must have a sub niche, not just a practice area, but a very specific audience that you target. So he does trademark protection for.

Moshe Amsel: Online businesses for course creators, for authors membership site owners. So exactly the information product field, but specifically people who are building an entire business, just in information products, he's my attorney for trademarking The Law Firm Growth [00:11:00] summit brand and the profit with law brand.

Moshe Amsel: He offers a course, a DIY trademark course for that audience. And, his service might be 1, 500 and his course might be 500 bucks. So he's giving a alternate solution to his audience. In case you can't afford the, the done for you service. Now, for somebody like me, if I had the time, it would have made a lot of sense for me to buy the course because I could have done multiple trademarks with my efforts.

Moshe Amsel: But the beauty is that ultimately if somebody goes and violates my trademark, I'm going to end up needing to go to use an attorney anyway, to get that takedown notice, to get that, to do the legal action to protect my mark is still going to require the attorney. So the upfront. Loss of not having, me come in and you do the service for me is always going to be made up on the back end.

Moshe Amsel: There's always going to be opportunity there where the attorney is needed. And it's just going to mean that I'm going to go to him and nobody else. So that's one example. Another example is Bobby Klink, who will also be a, an interview on the podcast. It's just not released yet, but sometime in the next [00:12:00] couple of weeks from when we're recording this, it'll be out by the time your listeners hear this.

Moshe Amsel: Bobby Klink, his story is interesting where he worked for a firm. Then he started his own firm. Ultimately, he ended up creating legal templates for, again, this is, it's interesting, he's the same audience as Joey, they're both serving the same audience, but, so he does legal templates for them. And I don't know specifically what the templates are, but I imagine that it's like contracts and vendor contracts and.

Moshe Amsel: Terms of service that you need on your website, privacy policy stuff like that, and he sells that, and it's, that's all he does, like he, he doesn't do any service based work, he doesn't represent any clients, he simply has people who come to him, and they buy these templates from him, and that's it, so it's another form, another example, he doesn't have a course, he doesn't, he doesn't teach you anything, he just provides templates with instructions, here's how to use it, Yeah.

Moshe Amsel: Fill in the blanks.

Jan Roos: And it's funny. Cause it's everyone hates competing against legal zoom, but what if you could actually become legal? But I'm just joking. But on that point of like really accessibility here, it's we've got it's not truly [00:13:00] cannibalizing the market that much, because it's like, I remember the stat from, I think it was Rick Lewis from EPA legal.

Jan Roos: The average American has something like 1, 400 in their checking account. If your retainer is three K, which is, not that much for most practices of law. You're priced out for a lot of people, people are going to have to figure out what they're going to do for rent the next month that they hire you.

Jan Roos: So are you competing for those people? Chances are it's not, if if you have a product that ends up being a thousand dollars, then that's going to unlock really another complete set of the market. And even if you do have that kind of person who might be the DIY mentality, a lot of the times some of these courses can be just enough rope to hang yourself with.

Jan Roos: I need you to bail you out at some point down the line.

Moshe Amsel: Exactly. And there's all kinds of ways to sell an information product that overcomes that price barrier. So there are payment plans. There's, there, there's different things that you could do. You could throw bonuses in where suddenly it becomes something that is an irresistible thing that somebody is like, Oh, I have to get this.

Moshe Amsel: And once you have somebody in that position, they're going to find a way to come up with that money. It's harder [00:14:00] for somebody to come up with a retainer for legal services when it's an open ended. Relationship, right? If you're not doing flat fees and they're, that's just a retainer. They know that every hour that you're working, they're going to be paying for that.

Moshe Amsel: And a perfect example that one of my guests shared, and I don't remember which one it was, is that put yourself in the client seat. The client has questions about how things work. Let's say a family law attorney, right? When I go and I hire a family law attorney to go through my divorce. I want to know what's the divorce process.

Moshe Amsel: What do, what should I expect? What's going to happen now? We just got hit with emotion from the other side. What does that mean for me? All those questions are going to cost me money because every time I ask a question, I'm on the clock and I'm being billed for it. So instead of finding out the answers, I'm going to keep my mouth shut and I'm just going to wait and hope for the best.

Moshe Amsel: And that's an awful place for a client to be in. What if you had an information product that you bundled with your services or even provided as. Something else that went along. So if somebody [00:15:00] is going through a divorce, you sell an information product. That's all about the divorce process in the state of X, right?

Moshe Amsel: You just, you choose your state, learn about the divorce process in the state. And you can make it a fairly inexpensive product because it's there for the masses in the state that are going through a divorce and you can sell that like hot cakes. And what's going to happen is that. Other attorneys are going to be referring their clients to your information product because they don't have that.

Moshe Amsel: And it's something that's not competing with them. It's something that's giving their clients something that they need that's going to help them with the process. And what's going to happen is through your information product, you're going to get referrals, but you can't possibly serve everybody in your state because geographically you can only serve the people that are in your geographical area.

Moshe Amsel: So now this becomes this beautiful circle of awesomeness where you're referring business out. Other attorneys that are technically your competition, right? They're in the same practice area, but they're not in your geographic areas. He can't serve these people. So you're referring that business out and then they're in turn finding out how they came to you and [00:16:00] they're learning about your information product.

Moshe Amsel: And now they're going to turn and turn around and sell your information product. And you can even work out if it's allowed within your practice here, within your rules of. Professional conduct. You can even have an affiliate relationship where you give them a percentage of that sale for that educational piece of material.

Moshe Amsel: So they even have skin in the game. They even have a reason to promote it and to push it to their clients.

Jan Roos: Yeah. And that's really interesting. And one of the things I just thought was like, there's a, there's no jurisdiction on information products. You could have this.

Jan Roos: It's something in article if you wanted to, but one of the things I had in mind, and it's just, you think about there's, there's always people who are very rightly so very cautious about what the bar might have to say about things. So we're in this weird gray area. What would you have to say to somebody who's in a position where okay, this really sounds great.

Jan Roos: And I gotta say too, it's like the amount of. Open endedness really allows you to potentially be really creative with how you structure these how you promote these that kind of thing But is this governed under, state bar laws for attorney advertising? Where does it stop being promoting the law firm and start being promoting something else entirely?

Moshe Amsel: So that's a very good question And you know [00:17:00] that I cannot answer that question across the board for every state every country, in the world what I can tell you is that In the U. S., the bars have gotten a lot more lenient with what is allowed, and most attorneys are already allowed to go out on social and to put their face out there, to make informational videos, to provide a lead magnet with a free something, guide to something.

Moshe Amsel: And they're within the rules of, what they're allowed to do. This is a step before that, right? That, the intention of that is to bring a client into the law firm. Here, you can have 100 percent of your intention of this information product is to sell the information product with zero attachment to your law firm.

Moshe Amsel: The halo effect that's going to happen of people going from the information product into your law firm is going to happen on its own. You don't have to do anything to promote that. You could, but one of the beautiful things is one of the people on my summit is Sid Padenty, who has a program called Grant for Lawyers.

Moshe Amsel: And one of the things that he [00:18:00] teaches you and he implements and done for you service is to create a nonprofit educational center. So a nonprofit entity that is your education arm, and that's where you run your free education from. And then he helps you with getting grants in that nonprofit that helps pay for your marketing costs.

Moshe Amsel: But if you structure yourself that way, then you're further distancing this information and this content. From the law firm because you're the information is even being done by it by a separate entity. You're it's your Philanthropic efforts. It's not even you trying to seek out services you have to figure out what works within your code of professional conduct what your rules are But ultimately I think that there's for almost practically everybody this would be able to be separated legally And in reality from the law firm so that you're not in that gray area.

Moshe Amsel: Yeah, I gotcha. I'm sorry to put you there. Moshe

Jan Roos: was like, Hey, Moshe, for the record what do you any binding statements to make for all 50 state [00:19:00] bars? No, but just just as far as people who might've wanted to shout the message. The point is like basically people have thought about this There are ways to do it And again, just based on the fact that a lot of the people that you've enlisted to help out with this whole process a lot of our attorneys So it's you know It should be helpful to have a little bit of proof that this can be something that is doable at least while remaining in the good graces Of our organizations, but yeah, I mean it's really interesting.

Jan Roos: Sorry.

Moshe Amsel: Yeah I'll add one more thing and that is that the bar basically only has jurisdiction when you're practicing law, right? So when you are in a client relationship where there is attorney client privileges is really where they have jurisdiction. And information products does not create that relationship.

Moshe Amsel: It if it did, it would create a whole host of other problems. And these might be problems. And so let's just mention it. Conflicts. There could be a problem with conflicts. You have to do your due diligence. You have to figure out, and maybe you have to structure different information product because of that possibility.

Moshe Amsel: But what if somebody bought [00:20:00] your info product on how to navigate a divorce? And now you get the other party. Coming to you and saying, Hey, I want you to represent me against my spouse and the spouse ends up being somebody who bought your information product. Does that put you into conflict? And I don't know the answer to that.

Moshe Amsel: But I think those questions are better way of answering this, because if that doesn't put you into a conflict, then it puts probably, doesn't violate any of the other rules as far as your advertising and all of that. And some people are going to translate those rules more stringently than others.

Moshe Amsel: So you can find examples all across the board where people are saying, Hey, you can't do this because it's against the rules. And somebody else is I read the rules and I think I can do it. So you have to choose what works for you. And I'm not going to be the one to tell you. Hey you could do this and you come back to me six months later and say, Hey, I just lost my license.

Moshe Amsel: Thanks very much. So you have to do your own due diligence, but I believe that if you are passionate about this, if you believe that this is the future for law and you [00:21:00] agree with me on that. You can probably find a way within your current rules to justify, moving forward with it.

Jan Roos: Yeah. I'm just trying to think about the people who might, if you made it this far in the podcast, obviously you've heard something that sounds at least interesting, but the, this is something that I always see too, and going back to the beginning of the podcast where I was mentioning, Both of us probably know people that have info products as their main source of income.

Jan Roos: And what are those people's lives look like? They have really small staff. They have really high overhead. They go on a lot of vacations. And if you're in a place where you're in a hardcore day to day, clients have your number sun up to sunrise. And the only way you're going to be able to scale is to bring on young, talented people who seem to be more scarce every month.

Jan Roos: This might be something to really consider. And then if not that, just, It's sounds like a lot of fun and, we've done a little bit of experimentation with what we've added to our service. And it's been really interesting too, because in addition to, if you look at things how we were running two, three years ago, there was a lot less support they were able to offer our clients.

Jan Roos: But having a lot of this stuff in there is just, if nothing else, it's been a lot of fun, and being able to help people in different [00:22:00] ways is really rewarding for other people as well. Yeah. I think it's so awesome that you've taken the then and who knows?

Jan Roos: I really feel like this could be one of these events that we look back and if this ends up being the de facto thing that people are doing five years from now, I think this seems to be a potential Johnny Appleseed moment. I think it's really awesome that you're doing this. So as far as how people might be able to take the next step, what's if this is resonating with folks, what's the best way to to get involved?

Moshe Amsel: Yeah, absolutely. So the, what I'm going to do before I answer that question is I'm going to say When, whenever a new idea is planted, it always sounds like, wow, I could do this and I'll be rich tomorrow. This is going to take off and it's going to be amazing. This is not a get rich quick scheme and it takes work creating an information product and getting it to be successful requires that you learn how to build an audience, that you learn how to talk to them, that you learn what their pain points are, you learn their language.

Moshe Amsel: It is not a simple process. If you're going to buy into this, just buy into it, understanding that you're essentially adding another arm to your business. You're adding another [00:23:00] business under the umbrella of your law firm, and you have to treat it that way. So you can't just say, Oh, I'm going to do this and go out there and, throw up a landing page and try to sell it and hope for the best.

Moshe Amsel: Having said that what we did was is I want I'm very passionate about this and I want to give you the building blocks that You need so we what we did is we ran a one day event the one day summit and by the time you're hearing this the live Event already occurred. It was Monday, June 15th, but the entire day Is available to you, you can go through and per use it.

Moshe Amsel: So if you want to do that, go to profitwithlaw. com forward slash hidden revenue, profitwithlaw. com forward slash hidden revenue, and that's unlock your hidden revenue stream one day summit. And there, we take you through the process of really understanding. What's involved? So you get to under you get to see what's possible.

Moshe Amsel: You get to see what how you market this. You get to see, the grants for lawyers opportunity. I show you a piece of software. That's the one piece of software you need to run this business. And we take you through that journey. [00:24:00] At the end of the journey. The last person that I have that I interview is James Wedmore.

Moshe Amsel: James Wedmore is the founder of a product called Business by Design. Business by Design. And he created, think of the franchise opportunity. If you were to buy a McDonald's, when you buy the McDonald's, you're, what you're buying is not just the name, what you're buying is the system and the processes of how to run a McDonald's successfully.

Moshe Amsel: So they're going to teach you how to hire people. They're going to teach you how to fry the food. They're going to teach you how to manage the flow and get the cars driving through the lot. They're going to teach you how to design the space that, That you're going to have that McDonald's in, they teach you all of that.

Moshe Amsel: So that when you open your doors, you're successful from day one. Business by design is a program that James Wedmore is my mentor when it comes to information products. I'm in a high level coaching program with him. I give him tens of thousands of dollars every single year to be a part of that. Because he has built a high multimillion dollar business of information products and he teaches others [00:25:00] how to do the same and he has thousands of clients that he has taught how to implement and scale and we're talking about seven figure businesses, thousands of seven figure businesses that he has helped create in all kinds of industries.

Moshe Amsel: You, Think of anything like teaching guitars and teaching people how to can food. You name it, he's got a client that's doing it. So he created this business by design, which is basically, it's got everything you need to know. Everything you need to know how to understand the math of how it works, how to position your product, how to talk to your audience, and he's got literal step by step processes for every type of promotion, every type of marketing that you might do.

Moshe Amsel: And it's all in there. So he's got an eight part video series that you can access right now. It's and if you go to profitwithlaw. com forward slash video series, profitwithlaw. com forward slash video series you can watch that eight part series where he walks you through this process and understanding how this business is created.

Moshe Amsel: Now, a full disclaimer at the end of it, he's selling something. And when this episode comes out, it's literally [00:26:00] two days before his cart closes, which means he sells it once a year. Your opportunity to get in there is over two days later. So if you're serious about this, I would recommend that you consume this content quickly because you have to make a decision.

Moshe Amsel: Am I in now, or am I waiting until next year for the opportunity? So that's the other place that I would go to is to just go through there. Ultimately my one day summit, the way I positioned it was to push people to that because. I don't want to recreate the process. I want to plug you into a system that I know is working and that I know that you can be successful.

Moshe Amsel: And we're offering all kinds of bonuses for signing up through our, referral link, we get a credit for that sale. And one of those is a 90 day. Program where we're going to be going through it and doing accountability for you So I charge six thousand dollars for a 90 day group coaching program You're going to get that absolutely free to be involved with my organization so that we can coach you through getting your first information product Out there and that's going to be included when you sign up to his program [00:27:00] through our link So jan, I know we're out of time and that was a lot But literally go through the hidden revenue stream event Go through James's video series, and if at the end this feels right to you, then jump into his product, use my link so you get the accountability group from me, and, and I will help you with that process because I would love to see 100 attorneys, maybe 200 attorneys take me up on this and go through this, so if you're on board, I'd love to see you in there.

Jan Roos: Yeah. Awesome. And then, if there still is a world left in a year from now, you're listening to this podcast. I would also recommend signing up for Moshe's profit with law podcasts, wherever fine podcasts are able to be subscribed to. It's always one one I look forward to every week myself.

Jan Roos: Thanks again, Moshe. I super appreciate it. And yeah, for everyone else, we'll be back in another. episode of The Law Firm Growth podcast next week.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Growth podcast. For show notes, free resources and more. Head on over to [00:28:00] casefuel.com/podcast Looking forward to catching up on the next episode.