PPC vs SEO and The Impact of Chat Services

Law Firm Growth Podcast Episode 9: 40% More Case Files Without Increasing Your Marketing Spend with Ted DeBettencourt

Last week we met with Valerie Del Grosso and discussed email marketing

Ted DeBettencourt: [00:00:00] The chance of a chat turning into a chat lead increases about 70%. If we're able to get to the, if the first response to the chat happens within three seconds.

Narrator: Welcome to the Law Firm Growth Podcast, where we share the latest tips, tactics, and strategies for scaling your practice from the top experts in the world of growing law firms.

Narrator: Are you ready to take your practice to the next level? Let's get started.

Jan Roos: Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Casefuel podcast. I'm your host, Jan Roos. And today we're here with Ted to bet in quarters, the co founder of Juvo leads. So I'm sure some of you may have seen the prevalence of chatbots on some of the larger firms that, that might be in your market.

Jan Roos: And Ted's actually developed a really interesting solution. That's taking a lot of the advantages that some people are getting while eliminating some of the problems that people may or may not be aware of by implementing these chat solutions. Regardless, he is an expert on all things related to chat.

Jan Roos: So I'm really excited [00:01:00] to see what we can get from this interview with Ted. Thanks for having me on. How's it going today? Good, good. Getting into it. Would you mind telling us a little bit about your origin story? How you came to focusing on this in your business?

Ted DeBettencourt: Sure. Jubilee started me and my co founder Nick, we've been working with a lot of different law firms and looking at the existing chat solutions out there.

Ted DeBettencourt: And we saw, we didn't really like any of the ones that existed. And also we kind of didn't like the idea of chat overall, to be perfectly honest. And we said, let's come up with the technology to to beat chat. So we developed this cool piece of software that basically a visitor comes to the website, types their phone number onto their desktop or mobile device, and the phone would ring both at the law firm and then the law firm would press, you know, a number on their phone, like press one, and then the person would be contacted.

Ted DeBettencourt: And our whole goal was to beat chat in terms of try to get more leads for the website. And we tried about 25 different variations of the graphic of the UX. And every time we [00:02:00] lost the chat. So, you know, eventually we realized, okay, well, you can't beat chat. Chat always wins. So let's figure out how to make chat better.

Ted DeBettencourt: So then we kind of pivoted, so to speak, and turned around and became a what we like to think it's kind of the best chat solution out there for law firms.

Jan Roos: Gotcha. Yeah. So if you can't beat him, join him, I guess. Yeah, that was kind of our take. So, basically, I'm sure we have some listeners, most of the people on this podcast probably have a website.

Jan Roos: So, in terms of people that are seeing the best benefit for this, what do you think is the point at which people should really start to focus on chat as a solution?

Ted DeBettencourt: Generally, everyone can benefit from chat. In terms of when it becomes a nice to have versus a need to have, is anytime you start driving paid traffic to the site.

Ted DeBettencourt: So, you know, if you're spending 100 and driving traffic to the site, if your conversion rate, if, you know, doubling your conversion rate or, you know, Moving it up 40, 50%. It's something that turns into real dollars saved or earned. And at that point it becomes necessary. So for instance, if you're driving a thousand dollars worth of ads to a [00:03:00] landing page for an AdWords client, and you know, you're converting.

Ted DeBettencourt: 5, 10%. If you throw chat on the site without it before, immediately the minute you put chat on the site, you're increasing your conversion rate anywhere between 20 to 40%. So you know, if you're doing 5%, now you're doing somewhere between 7 and 10%. If you're doing 10%, now you're doing 14, 15%. It really depends on exactly what type of traffic.

Ted DeBettencourt: As the conversion rate goes up, it means you're getting more bang for your buck with your AdWords spend. So that's where we really like to make

Jan Roos: sure it's a must have for, for clients. So one of the interesting things about the legal niche is that we're working with some pretty large case file sizes. So the decision to go ahead and invest in software like this, even if it turns into one closed retainer, if you know, if you're having 3, 000 in your average retainer, that's a very, very tangible benefit and, you know, to your point.

Jan Roos: The fact that people are already spending money on paid traffic, one of the things that I don't think gets spoken about enough is really the importance of conversion. Cause you know, going to your conversation about a 20 to 40 percent benefit [00:04:00] even if you're getting a solid ROI, let's say you're getting three to one on your AdWords spend of a thousand dollars.

Jan Roos: So if we can kick that up from 3000 up to, you know, 4, 500, that's a pretty compelling case for getting this done. So that's actually really interesting fed into one of my next questions was sort of the, the metrics that you have for conversion. So basically we're saying that we're increasing the amount of conversion that people are going to get by 20 to 40%, which is super helpful figure based on your data.

Jan Roos: And you guys have access. To a lot of law firms who are running your software right now, what kind of metrics are you guys seeing in terms of initiated chat to close chat, close chat in terms of case value? Like what kind of numbers do you have on that?

Ted DeBettencourt: That's a good question. And it varies pretty significantly, mostly by the traffic source.

Ted DeBettencourt: So for instance, there's a lot of legal blogs out there that draw traffic nationally. So some of these blog posts might get a ton of traffic, but they don't necessarily drive a ton of leads because you know, if, if a law firm only and they're getting national rankings for a particular blog [00:05:00] firm, that page might have a low conversion rate just because, you know, people from all around are reading it, whereas AdWords traffic or local pages are going to have a much higher conversion rate, depending on how tight the AdWords campaign is, and what you're focusing on.

Ted DeBettencourt: For some of the niche term practice areas, or not even niche so much, but a kind of the smaller term, so the patent law, some trademark law, anything like that, we're seeing 15, 20 percent conversion on AdWords. And from by that, we mean visit to lead in terms of the more normal or kind of the more typical, the PIs, the criminal defense DUIs for AdWords campaigns, we're seeing anywhere between five to 15 percent conversions conversion rate for a lot of our campaigns regarding chat.

Ted DeBettencourt: To chat lead. So, you know, maybe someone will have a chat, but we'll screen them out or they won't be a good lead. It's anywhere between a third of the chats turn into leads to about 60 percent of the chats turn into chat leads. It really depends on the AdWords campaign itself. For SEO, [00:06:00] we're looking at somewhere around 25 to 35 percent in terms of chats to chat leads.

Ted DeBettencourt: So, it really depends on the source of the traffic though.

Jan Roos: That's actually really interesting and definitely higher than I expected, because basically, you know, you have something that's sort of a differentiator, which is something we've talked about in a couple of previous episodes. So if you take three law firms, and this is something one of our previous guests, Gary Falkowitz, who's a specialist on intake says, you know, you have to assume that whenever somebody comes through your website, they spoke to one law firm before you, they spoke to one law firm after you.

Jan Roos: So if those other people that, that were, were communicating the law firm before had something like an email form, and then the other one had maybe a phone call with the receptionist or something like that, when you get to I would say that the lead that ends up speaking to the law firm a little bit more, if nothing else, it's a point of differentiation.

Jan Roos: You kind of get to. Feel like, you know, this law firm. I mean, I think if you're considering the competitive metrics and the committed nature of the space, it's definitely a benefit to have this kind of thing to that point though. I wanted to kind of discuss sort of the alternatives that, that people have, because this is something that that's come up when I've discussed this with [00:07:00] clients and stuff.

Jan Roos: So what kind of cannibalization do we see? So, you know, if you have a email form and a phone form, for example, is, are the people that are chatting people that wouldn't be otherwise communicating with that person.

Ted DeBettencourt: And that was actually one of our biggest fears when we started. We said, all right, well, you know, if we put chat on the site, before chat, 10 people were to contact the law firm in any given month.

Ted DeBettencourt: And then we put chat on the site, won't it just be, you know, eight people chatting with the site and two people calling or, or some variation, we're afraid it wouldn't be any net gain. To kind of our surprise, and, and we're actually pretty happy to see this, is that we didn't really see a lot of cannibalization.

Ted DeBettencourt: We lost somewhere between five to 10 percent of the leads we attributed were cannibalized. But if we looked at the total amount of leads that came. ad spend the same and the SEO traffic relatively the same. We did see a, generally a large jump in leads that came in. So it wasn't a cannibalization issue as much as we had feared.

Ted DeBettencourt: But that is a legit concern, but all the data we have says it just doesn't So, you know, if you would have 10 calls one [00:08:00] month, maybe you'll have eight calls and two of those calls will now be chats, but we'll still have enough additional chat leads come in to more than make up for the two that were cannibalized that way.

Jan Roos: That's a really interesting point. And one of the things that this kind of comes into with the sort of marketing that we do is this question between AdWords versus SEO. And the answer that we've kind of come to it, and it's actually sort of a similar thing. We found that a pay per click traffic will cannibalize the SEO traffic to a pretty, you know, actually eerily similar amount, about five to 10%.

Jan Roos: But it's sort of the, the way that we've kind of explained this out. And I think this, this carries to the chat versus call or email conversation as well. Is that ultimately you're talking about a lot of different people that could be visiting your site and different people have different preferences.

Jan Roos: I'm sure everyone's got a friend that's so scared that they wouldn't even order pizza if they picked up the phone, you know, let alone talk to a lawyer and they don't understand what the financial ramifications of that might be if people aren't communicating the whole free consultation thing. Well, but basically, you know, you might have somebody that doesn't really have because they're shy, maybe it's because they're a little bit [00:09:00] earlier in the sequence.

Jan Roos: Maybe it's just the type of person that they are. They might not be willing to jump on the phone or, or. Set up an email to jump on the phone with somebody right away, but it's a lower touch place. So ultimately I think the reason that this cannibalization doesn't occur is because you're essentially reaching a different group of people that are visiting your site.

Ted DeBettencourt: Yeah, I definitely think that I couldn't agree with you more. It's a different group of people and the same people that would call up are going to be a different type of lead or person or website visitor than the one that might just have a quick question. So for us, a lot of the times with the chat, the person will have a quick question or, you know, Hey, I have this legal question.

Ted DeBettencourt: How do I get it figured out? And from that, we, our job is to take that question, determine if that person would be a good lead, and if so, then turn that lead into, or turn that chat into a lead. So often that would mean hey, that's a great question, we'd be happy to set you up with a free consultation, if, you know, the law firm offers that, and then convert it that way.

Ted DeBettencourt: So these are the people that are a little bit. Probably less hesitant to make a phone call then, you know, and, and kind of get fully engaged in the subject. And [00:10:00] oftentimes they just say, Hey, I just got, you know, there's a little quick question I want to help with.

Jan Roos: And that's actually something that, you know, in my practice, we're generating mostly phone calls with pay per click and SEO.

Jan Roos: And I can't tell you how many times people are you know, we have, we have clients that get people that are asking these quick questions and, you know, they're paying good money for these leads. So they get a little bit upset by that sometimes. And if you can have a way that people can reach, ultimately it's, you know, people know what they're getting into and there's not a lot of stuff to process.

Jan Roos: But that actually leads into my next question, which is basically, you sort of touched on this before, but you know, this is something that's kind of come up and this is really with all marketing is just, you look at somebody, especially if somebody is a solo practitioner or somebody who's aggressively involved with growing their firm.

Jan Roos: There's not a lot of time to go around. So, you know, we have this big volume of chats that are coming in. How are people dealing with this and how do you guys address that issue specifically?

Ted DeBettencourt: We're actually a little bit different than most chat company or pretty much every check I've been out there is that we don't do the paper lead chat version.

Ted DeBettencourt: We have flat chat rate. So what that allows us to do is do a little bit more filtering than some of the other guys out [00:11:00] there. We're not going to send you leads that a law firm doesn't want. So a lot of times with the paper lead service, the law firm ends up going back to the fourth saying, Hey, Adam, this isn't really a lead.

Ted DeBettencourt: This is just a question. And you know, there's issues there with us that doesn't happen because we have a set number of chats that come in and that's how our pricing is based. So with that said, we're able to filter a little bit better. So if a law firm says we only want leads that come that follow, you know, these five questions, was there an accident?

Ted DeBettencourt: If it's PI, was there an accident, was somebody injured? Was it in the state? You know, how serious was the injury and based on the criteria that each law firm sets up, then we're able to take that as a qualification and pass on the lead only if it meets certain criteria.

Jan Roos: And then basically the way that you're doing this, is it all of a sudden the law firm installs a software, then they have to manage it personally.

Jan Roos: You guys are doing more of a managed service, right?

Ted DeBettencourt: Yeah, we're, we're fully hosted chat. So basically you just take a little piece of code, put it on your site, fill out a questionnaire that we asked to learn more about your law firm, and then you have 24 [00:12:00] seven coverage. So anytime someone comes on the site and starts asking a question to one of our chat agents, we provide the chats agents to fully answer all those questions.

Ted DeBettencourt: So it's a fully managed service. So the law firm doesn't have any more work on

Jan Roos: their end. And that's super important too. Cause like, you know, a couple of reasons. One is that, you know, we also went over in that previous episode with Gary Falkowitz generally speaking, a lot of front desk staff is really not well equipped.

Jan Roos: process leads that are coming in. So the reality is if you have people that are doing this stuff every single day, chances are, they're actually going to get more cases than your existing staff or yourself, if you're busy and another thing, and this is something that we've seen in the PBC world, specifically, a lot of the times things are less competitive.

Jan Roos: When you go outside of normal business hours, for obvious reasons, I mean, most people are going to be advertising during the time that they can actually take a call, but there's actually a huge benefit from a cost per lead perspective, because it's less, you know, there's, there's less competition for those clicks, but also, you know, you might be the only game in town when something happens.

Jan Roos: And I can see this happening really, really well for personal [00:13:00] injury. We actually have a situation with a client of ours. They recently were awarded a CBA. 6 million case, and they're able to track that down to a call that came at 10 58 PM on a Thursday. And they happen to do it through after hours dialing service.

Jan Roos: But, you know, the point still stands. If you're the people that are there to take the call, you're going to be the people that get the case. And, you know, but personal injury specifically, it's, you know, that, that can sometimes be a life changing amount of money.

Ted DeBettencourt: I couldn't agree more. One of the biggest factors and, and kind of going to go to that 1058 PM phone call is the chance of a chat turning into a chat lead increases about 70%.

Ted DeBettencourt: If we're able to get to the, if the first response to the chat happens within three seconds, so chats that take, if a person, if a law firm is managing a chat or a phone call and you know, it goes to voicemail for instance, and you know, maybe the law firm doesn't call it back. That's a, that's a missed opportunity.

Ted DeBettencourt: Same thing with chat. If someone starts chatting and maybe it's the secretary that, it. of the law firm that was managing the chat and, you know, maybe she's on the phone call, maybe she ran out to lunch or whatever reason she isn't able to answer it [00:14:00] at that exact moment. The chance of that chat initiation turning into a chat lead drops off dramatically.

Ted DeBettencourt: So part of the service and of the benefit of using a managed service like us is that when a chat comes in, all chats will be answered within less than three seconds, meaning the time that someone says, Hey, I got a question. To us replying, Hey, help and happy to help answer you occurs in basically instantaneously from the website visitor perspective, which increases the chance of a conversion.

Jan Roos: As far as the people that are hiring, I'm sure some people might be raising an eyebrow right now and say, yeah, I'm not sure if this is complying with my state bar organization or whatever. What kind of people you having answering these chats and can you speak to the need for an attorney to be present?

Ted DeBettencourt: First and foremost for us and pretty much every other chat service out there, we never attempt. To answer any legal questions. So none of the chat agents right now, I think, are attorneys and we don't try to be. Anytime we get a legal question, so let's say, you know a chat visitor comes on. So say I got this legal question.

Ted DeBettencourt: We always say, Hey, that's a great question for attorney, [00:15:00] you know, X, Y, Z, depending on the firm. We'd be happy to put you in contact with him or her. Can I have your name, please? So at no, we're very cognizant of the fact that any perceived answers to a legal question can create. A or at least in some states, a or a perceived attorney client privilege, which is a big no, no, we know.

Ted DeBettencourt: So, you know, we're very cognizant of that fact and we make sure not to ever give that appearance nor give any legal advice.

Jan Roos: That's definitely very good to know. Now I'm switching gears a little bit onto Juvo leads. specifically. So one of the things you mentioned when we were getting started was that you guys weren't really satisfied with any of the solutions that were currently on the market.

Jan Roos: What kind of issues were you seeing with the chat software that's out there that people might already be on or already be considering?

Ted DeBettencourt: Well, right now chat from the legal space is pretty much dominated by two big players and they're both. Pretty similar. There were two things we didn't like about what they, or three things we didn't like about how they work to exist, how they exist as of today, and why we wanted to create a solution.

Ted DeBettencourt: One, the chat agents all said the same thing. So there were cookie cutter answers. If you chat with one [00:16:00] agent on one firm site, they're going to give you the same cookie cutter answers as another agent on another firm site. So one of the things that we wanted to do is make sure we learn more about each other.

Ted DeBettencourt: Each firm we work with, so we can provide a little bit more custom answers to questions. And by custom answers, I don't mean legal answers. I mean questions, you know, they can be little things like, is there parking down the street? Are you open on Saturdays? Little questions like that. So we always make sure we have a questionnaire that we ask each law firm that we work with from the outset.

Ted DeBettencourt: So we can answer those little mundane questions. and provide a better service for the chat visitor. The second big thing we saw is we didn't really like how the pop up looked. When you clicked on the pop up or the chat with our competitors, a new window would open, it would literally be a pop up, and it was a kind of a jarring experience, especially on mobile.

Ted DeBettencourt: It, because on mobile, when a new window pops up, it's a little bit, feels funny. So we wanted to design our chat interface based off of What people were already familiar with using, and we found that the biggest chat applet out there was Facebook. So we designed the look and [00:17:00] feel of our chat off Facebook.

Ted DeBettencourt: So when a person comes to the site, they're already using a software that they're familiar with using, not kind of relearning the wheel with a new software. And the third big thing that. We wanted to change was that all the law firms we were working with were using both chat in a call tracking solution.

Ted DeBettencourt: So instead of just having the chat alone, we said, you know what, why don't we include call tracking with our chat solutions? So as of about a year ago, Jubilee is fully managed chat. We also do a call tracking. So it's kind of a three in one call tracking chat, hosted chat, and then form tracking. So we can track your existing forms as well.

Ted DeBettencourt: It just provides one central place for all your outlets to come in.

Jan Roos: One of the things we talk about often is, is sort of the importance of a law firm, especially one that's intending to grow about knowing their numbers and having something in one central location is a huge shortcut in terms of being able to, to get everything together.

Jan Roos: And then the other thing too, is that, you know, we can talk about stuff like. What's a chat lead compared to a phone lead? And there's probably some broad answers out there based on a lot of data, but [00:18:00] ultimately it's going to be, you know, the firm's positioning, the firm's market, what kind of practices are there in, and that's ultimately a sort of unique situation.

Jan Roos: So basically people are going to have the data. To go ahead and look at at what is actually working for the law firm and being able to have all that in one place is super important now kind of going on that stuff. You know, we talked about phone tracking a little bit. What's sort of the importance of tracking and what are some of the gains that you might have seen from people have implemented a solution like this where they haven't had one before?

Ted DeBettencourt: The big thing is, especially from an AdWords perspective, is if you set up full tracking so you can see what AdWords and search terms are leading to all your chat leads, phone leads, and form leads, it's a lot easier to pick the winners than the losers. So let's say you have a PI campaign and you have one ad group going after car accidents, one after truck accidents, and one after So if you run the campaign for a statistically significant period of time, so let's say you get 100 clicks in each each campaign, with full tracking, you could look and say, alright, from the car accidents I got 6 leads, [00:19:00] from the slip and fall I got 7, but from the truck accidents I got 12.

Ted DeBettencourt: leads total. And here are the top three terms within that ad group, which really were the ones that drove the leads. So once you know that data, then you can reallocate your budget for the next period of time and only put your budget into the winners and remove the losers from the campaign. Cause for every campaign, there's a lot of terms that drive clicks, but aren't driving leads.

Ted DeBettencourt: So once you could have identified them, you can cut those out from future campaigns and only spend money on the terms that

Jan Roos: bring leads in. That's super important. And I'm constantly shocked. So we do a lot of audits here at case fuel of existing AdWords accounts. You would be shocked to see the kind of spend that people are putting out there without actually having any sort of metrics on what's actually delivering the leads.

Jan Roos: And then yeah, to your point, that's really how you end up getting better results in the next month than you do this month. So if you don't really know What you're, you're doing. It's like, you know, it's like trying to drive a car with no rear view window and, you know, an opaque windshield, you know, all right.

Jan Roos: So you guys have tried a lot of different things in kind of the journey [00:20:00] to getting to the current iteration of Juvo leads. What are some experiments you've tried out that might not have worked out?

Ted DeBettencourt: Yeah, we had a lot, especially when we were trying to beat chat. We came up with so many darn UX versions.

Ted DeBettencourt: Of chat that allowed us to see what didn't work regarding chat specifically. One of the big things that we came up with is that in kind of a, we were happy to see when is when a website chat starts, we have these three little dots that bubble up. So all our chats are started by are started automatically by an AI unit.

Ted DeBettencourt: So the first thing they say is for each website, the three little dots, kind of Facebook that says welcome to X number of lives. My name is X. I'd be happy to answer any questions and help you in whatever way. And what we realized is those three little bubbling dots that appear kind of very similar to what they do on Facebook, once we put those on, we were able to beat all the other chat robots out there by a good margin.

Ted DeBettencourt: So that was one of the big things that we saw. [00:21:00] Before that, every test we had, we were somewhat, we were about the same, and sometimes a little worse, sometimes a little better than our competitors. But those three little bouncing dots were some of the ones that really helped us.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's pretty cool.

Jan Roos: And also calling back to a previous episode, sometimes it's just those little changes and things that can make all the difference. And it's really good that there's people out there like you that are trying this. So people have to figure it out on their own. I mean, I can't imagine most law firms have the technical teams in place to try this stuff out.

Jan Roos: So it's good that you're able to do this so people don't have to reinvent the wheel going on to some of this stuff. So you guys are working with a lot of data and all the clients that you guys have. What kind of stuff have you guys learned from seeing all this that the listeners might find helpful?

Jan Roos: Yeah.

Ted DeBettencourt: Our big thing is, you know, the minute you put chat on, you get an uptick in leads, just because if you walk into a you ever walk into like a Gap or, you know one of those clothing stores and at first, you know, the person goes, Hey, I'm here to help you with anything I can help you with. And, you know, most people didn't make sure reaction is no, I'm just browsing.

Ted DeBettencourt: But then two minutes later, you're looking for the pants and the right size. And, you know, you ask the person at the desk [00:22:00] there. So we're kind of a law firms version of that. So you might not have a question at first. So after you're on the site for a minute or two, you'll you usually have a question that we'd be happy to either help answer or direct you to the person that can.

Ted DeBettencourt: So, you know, chat up front adds value to tracking everything. So if you're not tracking it, you don't know what's winning, you're kind of throwing darts against the wall and aren't really able to keep score. So whether you use us or another solution or, you know, any solution out there, if you can't track.

Ted DeBettencourt: Your spend to your leads, you're kind of wasting your time because if you can't figure out what's working, you can't reallocate your budget based on your success. We're not the only tracking solution out there, obviously. There are other ones, but if you're not using us, at least have some way to be able to track to be able to tell exactly what's working and what's not.

Ted DeBettencourt: So yeah, so that's kind of our two big things.

Jan Roos: Alright, that's cool stuff. And then basically the last thing I wanted to ask was, you know, sometimes there's people who have this, this perception that chat's annoying. What kind of answer would you have to people who are saying that?

Ted DeBettencourt: I'd say that was our initial thought too.

Ted DeBettencourt: Chat can be annoying, but seeing the, to people chat might be [00:23:00] perceived as annoying. But the reality is it increases the conversion rate, increasing the leads. If you want more leads, you use chat. I think you're going to see a growing number of chat on websites moving forward. Five years ago, there was maybe, or you know, two years ago, there was maybe one out of every hundred.

Ted DeBettencourt: Now it's about one out of law firms that spend over 1, 000 a month of AdWords. It's one out of every two on those type of websites. So, you know, chat's growing. People realize it works. It makes money. If you want to make money, you're using chat.

Jan Roos: Well, there you said it. So look, if you're spending money on your marketing or law firm, if you're committed to growing, this is something that you can do to increase the amount of leads that you're getting by 20 to 40%.

Jan Roos: And the thing is that a lot of times this is really a huge force multiplier because it takes spend that you're already doing and gets you more out of it. So, you know, in my mind, it's, it's almost a no brainer for people who are really committed to doing this, to look into a solution, whether it's Jugo leads or one of these other ones, but you know, where our heart is based on this episode.

Jan Roos: So Ted, what's the best way for people to find you guys online if they're looking to to find a [00:24:00] solution like this?

Ted DeBettencourt: Reach us to reach out to us through our website. We're at juvoleads.com you can follow us on Twitter at juvoleads anyway, starting from the website, kind of working out from there, we offer free trials.

Ted DeBettencourt: So, you know, we normally do a free week trial, but for anyone that contacts us through you, who references this podcast, we give them a free month trial. So, by all means reach out, and we're happy to start the conversation.

Jan Roos: All right. Well, that's fantastic. And thanks again for that offer. That's, that's really great, Ted.

Jan Roos: Thanks again for making time on the podcast. I hope you guys got some value out of this. I know I sure did. And we'll look to see you next week on the case fuel podcast.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to the law firm growth podcast for show notes, free resources, and more head on over to case fuel. com slash podcast.

Narrator: Looking forward to catching up on the next [00:25:00] episode.