Law Firm Growth Strategies with Darren Findling, CEO of The Probate Pro

Law Firm Growth Podcast Episode 2: Building Referrals with Direct Mail and How to Be a Purple Cow with Darren Findling

Last weeks episode took a close look on the intake process.

Darren Findling: Before was great success. The after was going from seven lawyers to 20 in a very, very short period of time.

Narrator: Welcome to the Law Firm Growth podcast, where we share the latest tips, Tactics and strategies for scaling your practice from the top experts in the world of growing law firms. Are you ready to take your practice to the next level?

Narrator: Let's get started.

Jan Roos: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Case Real podcast. I'm your host, Jan Roos, and today we are here with Darren Findling. Darren is the. CEO of the probate pro. So Darren has been running a trust in states practice out of Michigan and Ohio. And he is also one of the top 500 fastest growing law firms in the country, posting a very impressive 113 percent growth last year.

Jan Roos: So thanks and welcome to the show.

Darren Findling: I appreciate being here.

Jan Roos: Let's go a little bit more into depth on the story. So we've got the kind of top level view, but would you mind telling us a little bit more about how you started to probate pro and got to the point we're at today?

Darren Findling: Absolutely. I started like most practitioners, just trying to figure out what to do when they got out of law school.

Darren Findling: I had no particular interest in probate other than the fact that I felt pretty competent in the subject matter when I left law school. So I was fortunate to be given an office space. In my father's sole practice, he's a lawyer, he's got three sons, and the office unfortunately was a closet with no clients, and he told me that if I wanted to build a business that I was going to have to do it on my own, but he would afford me rent free the closet and allow his knowledge and wisdom in good name to be leveraged by myself.

Darren Findling: So I'm really fortunate to have had a father that was very kind. to give me that opportunity to cut my teeth and learn along the way. My father did not practice probate, in fact, was a general practitioner, but early on I recognized that I wanted to grow this particular probate business as well as scale it into a business.

Darren Findling: So over the years we have employed all of progressive business concepts that you You can imagine to grow this business into where we are today and where we are today is we view ourselves not as a law firm, but we view ourselves as a scaling business. Although we happen to practice law and deliver legal services.

Darren Findling: We really try to shy away from viewing ourselves through that lens.

Jan Roos: So that's very interesting. One of the things we've seen as a commonality with a lot of the firms that we've spoken to in the top 500 fastest growing ones are sort of a focus on this whole business. As opposed to law firm it seems that the people who tend to think, Hey, just practice good law and, you know, put your name out there and the business is going to come to you tend to be the people who are working in solo practice for their entire careers.

Jan Roos: So it's a very interesting. Absolutely.

Darren Findling: As I said a moment ago, my father gave me the opportunity to have a closet and a desk and a phone, but not the opportunity. That the cases would just fall out of the sky and land into my lap. I learned very early on that you could stare at the phone all you want.

Darren Findling: It's not going to ring unless you shift the equilibrium and do something that will cause that phone to ring and for clients to end up hiring you. So, staring at the phone after a day or two or three caused me to start working on the business. Because there was not much to work in the business. I just had very little legal work that was available.

Darren Findling: So we did a number of things. When I say we, I as we continue to build and define things that were working professionally, I recognized that marketing a business was going to be essential for the phone to ring. I employed virtually none of the strategies that are done traditionally by law firms.

Darren Findling: So whether it was the yellow pages or speaking engagements, I thought that that was a crowded field. And for me to differentiate myself would mean that I needed to do it differently than everyone else was doing it. So we recognized early on that success was going to be creating a brand, which was the probate pro.

Darren Findling: And letting the world know that we were different than everyone else and that we offer great value. So we were very careful to define our value proposition. And we would constantly spread that message. And we'd spread the message, In a very directed manner so that we would send direct mail to people that would tend to refer business to lawyers like myself in the probate space, whether it be financial or estate planning lawyers or people that didn't like to litigate or personal injury lawyers that needed probate to support their particular space.

Darren Findling: We would send marketing material that was very creative. Not the traditional letters that you would see often disseminated. And early on, we were recognized by people as what I call the kid in high school who had the mohawk that everyone liked, but he clearly stood out from everyone else in the class.

Darren Findling: And I know that that concept of the purple cow is often used where everyone kind of, there's a lot of noise in it. In the world, but when you see a purple cow on the side of the road, you're going to stop and look and take a photo. So we wanted to become remarkable and differentiate ourselves, but it was more than just marketing.

Darren Findling: It also required adding great value. So we focused on building a great culture internally, which would then deliver great customer service and a great product. And then once we figured out the things that worked. We said, we're going to scale that and we would keep refining it, honing it, and multiplying on it.

Darren Findling: So that's the basic strategy. And I'm happy to explain even more details of things that we've done successfully in our business to grow it.

Jan Roos: That's really interesting, Darren. You're the first person that we've spoken to in this show that's taken the position of direct outreach to referral partners. And we know a lot of people, and this is, you know, pretty standard block and tackle stuff for most people starting a law firm.

Jan Roos: A lot of these people are thinking that the way to do that is those BNI breakfast meetings and handing out business cards and that kind of thing. But a lot of the times when we discussed with prospects and clients about potentially doing this sort of outreach, there's a lot of caginess around the rules surrounding attorney advertising, specifically when we're talking about.

Jan Roos: This direct outreach, which some people interpret as solicitation. So could you go into a little bit more about maybe the process that you went through and finding this and any sort of myths that might be out there that are preventing people from doing this right now?

Darren Findling: Because I'm in two states at the moment, both Michigan and in Ohio, and we're planning on expanding beyond it.

Darren Findling: We spent a lot of time understanding how different markets treat this particular subject matter. In Michigan, marketing. is accepted and encouraged and using a trade name like the Probate Pro is acceptable. But in other markets, that isn't the case and more or maybe less progressive markets have all sorts of rules around building a brand name as well as use of direct marketing.

Darren Findling: But I believe that most states are coming around and they may be slow, To the game, but they're coming around and in Michigan, we are able to directly market services to other lawyers and other businesses in, you know, following the ethical rules and we've taken advantage of it. We do it in a way that is creative and direct.

Darren Findling: We recognize that a referral source. Will be a referral source generally for life of their career, unless we do something to disrupt it or harm it. So rather than trying to acquire clients one at a time through direct to consumer. We recognize that direct to business of those businesses that would tend to refer business to us was a much more strategic way of client acquisition, and we have built a very, very large referral source.

Darren Findling: Through Michigan and in Ohio, in which people, when they think probate, when they think trust, they immediately send the work to us.

Jan Roos: Yeah. And you actually hit on a really important point there. And this is kind of the importance of niching down. Now a lot of people can kind of appreciate this from a networking perspective, but you know, if you're the person who does all things to all all people, it's really hard for somebody running a general practice, say, to get other referrals from another general practice.

Jan Roos: But since you guys have positioned yourselves in the market as the. Probate pros. It's easy for somebody who might not be super comfortable with probate administration to refer that work over to you. And also, you know, it kind of boils down to this concept of adding value, which is another thing that I'd want to discuss.

Jan Roos: So another objection that comes up to people doing this kind of stuff, you know, be it in direct outreach for referral relationships or marketing in general, is this kind of concept of being annoying? But it seems like you have a really good process for, for creating these these materials that are really adding value to the people that you're sending it to.

Jan Roos: Would you mind talking a little bit more about like the specifics of what kind of promotions and stuff that you're getting in front of these referral partners and the whole process to getting them established as a relationship partner?

Darren Findling: Sure. And there's so many that I could use as examples, but I'll just go to a few of them.

Darren Findling: Often people send out newsletters or brochures. We essentially deconstruct it. That and we know that there are so many that are out there that we created a one page newsletter that was directed to a particular type of lawyer that we knew that when they received it each month. That they would look forward to reading it, because it was humorous, it was colorful, it was interesting.

Darren Findling: There were nuggets of information that they'd want to know. It wasn't a bragging session, or telling us, you know, telling them that we hired a new lawyer. But rather, it added value to their day. And it felt valuable. And looked different than every other piece of mail that was received in their mailbox on that given day.

Darren Findling: So that's one example. Another example is that we send out, I know during the holiday season, there's all sorts of Baskets of fruit and candy and cookies and, and it's, it's pretty interesting to me that 99 percent of the material that I receive during the holiday season is in essence the exact same product.

Darren Findling: It may be packaged differently. It's food. It's sweets, there's a nice card with it, but in no way can I tell you what somebody gave me last year. And I get a lot of gifts during the holiday season. So we took the holiday season as an opportunity to send something that was not food. And that every time they received it, they'd remember it.

Darren Findling: And it would be remarkable. For example, I sent hundreds of six foot ladders. Imagine having a six foot ladder delivered to your office during the holiday season. The ladder had a very large poster kind of affixed to it. With a really creative photograph of us explaining how the Probate Pro was reaching new heights and that we wanted them to come along for the ride.

Darren Findling: We've sent all sorts of interesting creative marketing materials out that differentiate ourselves. So again, to the purple cow concept or the kid in high school with the mohawk, we always want. To differentiate ourselves. So if somebody else is doing it, we're not going to do it. We're going to do it differently, creatively stand out and show why they want to be a part of our team and how we can add value to them.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's fantastic stuff, Darren. So. You've touched on a couple of different things. I know you've mentioned the phrase Purple Cow, which I'm sure, yeah, we both know is a Seth Godin thing, but I get the idea that you're the kind of guy who reads a lot of stuff about this. What kind of resources have you been using to sort of educate yourself on this?

Jan Roos: And I mean, obviously you're a very creative guy, but to kind of facilitate that process and give you a little bit more direction in terms of how you're going ahead and doing these things, because I mean, it's, it's a pretty ballsy move. I'm sure six foot ladders, you know, shipping included is not a cheap move, but you know, compared to the fruit baskets, those aren't cheap either.

Jan Roos: So a little bit of this creative brainstorming can definitely go a long way. And I'm sure the impact is immeasurable.

Darren Findling: Yeah. And I look at it from an abundance perspective, not a scarcity perspective. I look at every single thing that goes out of this office is an investment in the future. So although there's a cost to do a six foot ladder or these marketing materials.

Darren Findling: I recognize that I'm purely investing and that I will receive a return on that investment. So I look at it from an abundance and investment perspective, not, oh my God, this is going to cost a lot of money. The second thing about using resources. So first of all, I think just my personality and my upbringing, a lot of this is just who I am.

Darren Findling: Secondly, I do rely on I have tons of resources to assist me. A few of them include some of the materials and mentors out in the field, specifically Gino Wickman, who is a consultant who does the EOS system. Gino Wickman's model has been central to many of the concepts. that I use for purposes of scaling and running the business.

Darren Findling: I've also read extensively different business books. I, I always find them interesting to draw concepts here and there from them, but primarily I recognize that I needed to be partnered professionally, organizationally. With somebody with strong integration skills because I am a visionary by birth and I needed an integrator partner to allow these concepts, these ideas that I have for purposes of growth to become reality, to become executable in the field.

Jan Roos: And that's also a really important concept that a lot of people and I'm in businesses all over the world, not just law firm. It takes a lot of introspection and taking a hard, honest look at yourself to see what your strengths and weaknesses are. So in terms of actually finding that person, how did you go about doing it?

Jan Roos: And, and, you know, what kind of was the, the, the before and after with once you found that person?

Darren Findling: Sure. So before was. Great success. The after was going from seven lawyers to 20 in a very, very short period of time. So we essentially were leaving a lot of money on the table. I recognized very early on that I needed additional support to grow and scale and extensive interviewing, finding the right person that would complement the My weaknesses with their strengths, et cetera, to ensure that we'd have diversity of thought yet culturally would be in alignment because ultimately everybody in my organization has to embody the core values of my organization and fit the culture to ensure that we will grow with the plan that we have over the next 10 years.

Jan Roos: Right. And then we're kind of coming back to this culture distinction, which isn't a lot of people pay lip service to this concept of corporate culture, but you know, it's a lot more challenging than writing the core values in a document and saying, this is what we're going to do. So, I mean, you guys have obviously had a lot of success with it.

Jan Roos: What kind of activities are you guys doing in terms of making sure that these ideas get disseminated and are taken? As a, you know, a point of, of making decisions in the firm

Darren Findling: to the culture piece, almost every single day. I'm thinking about how do we create an environment where the people that are in my organization are going to want to wake up in the morning, brush their teeth and look forward to coming in to the office, enjoy their time while they're in their office and want to give their all to their office.

Darren Findling: So culture is it. Building an environment that is placed by the rules and encourages creativity, encourages participation and input and commitment and passion to the work. So, there are all sorts of things that we do, whether it's organizational activities, fun outings, spontaneous, Ice cream events. I mean, I could go on and on with activities that we've done over the last three months.

Darren Findling: And again, I look at these because I know that every time we do this, we are strengthening the culture of our office, which is critical to the growth of our office. So we take culture very, very seriously. We just recently were awarded a cool place to work by one of the leading publications because of our commitment to culture.

Darren Findling: To culture and our commitment to creating a healthy organization. My plan is to build the best organization in the country, not the best law firm, not the best probate firm, but the best organization in the country. That's what I'm committed to.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's fantastic. And it kind of goes down to the the investment mindset you spoke about earlier.

Jan Roos: I mean, some people are going to look at a spontaneous ice cream event as, you know, that's 500 or a thousand dollars that I didn't need to spend. Spend this month, but you know, when you kind of take it off of the cost and into that abundance mindset that you mentioned earlier, that's how you're opening yourself up to the dividends that you guys have been able to, to reap from, from growing this and providing a great service.

Jan Roos: Now we

Darren Findling: also are successful at recruiting people that otherwise wouldn't have looked at our office because of, I do believe that although pay is important, most people believe that if they're going to spend eight. Or so hours a day, five days a week in an office. They're interested in more than just pay.

Darren Findling: They're interested in spending most of their day in a, in a healthy, good place to work that gives them opportunity, creativity and growth. So that's what we're committed to.

Jan Roos: Right. And it's no, it all seems like a self reinforcing cycle as well. You know, it becomes easier to hire, becomes better, get good people.

Jan Roos: The good people are supporting themselves. And at the end of this. You know, a whole journey that you've taken, you have a great place to work. That's I'm sure getting better every single month. Now I'm kind of going back a little bit. So, you know, we're, we're looking at today, we've got 20 attorneys, you know, quite a far cry from the Darren in the closet some time ago, as far as the whole road to here, I'm sure it wasn't all positive.

Jan Roos: So like, in terms of like the major hiccups you might've made, like what kind of major advice would you give to a younger person who's all starting out?

Darren Findling: I think that the one that stands out by far the most is the unwillingness to. I think that early on when you are a sole practitioner or in an office with just a few people, most people in that space tend to believe that they're the only ones that can effectively and efficiently do their role.

Darren Findling: I've done every role in my office, whether it's The receptionist, bookkeeper, the biller, the client, contact, I've done all those roles. And at various times, I'm sure I believed that I was the only one that could do it and that I could never scale that particular function because I insisted on doing it. I have some entrepreneurial friends who used to joke or tease me that I was still stamping the backs of the checks as before they were going to the bank.

Darren Findling: That's how much control I wanted over every. Aspect of my business because I want excellence in every area and what I think as an entrepreneur I struggled with some of the big hiccups was recognizing That I can hire people to do work and delegate it in a way that they will do great work and in fact Often better than I could have ever done And that was very hard to learn and very hard to give up control of various aspects of the roles of the business.

Jan Roos: Yeah, we refer to that sometimes because that's, it seems to be a common thing, especially with the people that have scaled, you know, a lot of the solo practitioners, we refer to this as the superhero syndrome. And, you know, there's got to be some sort of a watershed moment where you kind of just decide enough is enough and finally decide to move it on.

Jan Roos: Would you mind, you know, if you remember, Darren, was there a moment in particular that, that kind of caused you to look at this and for somebody who might be going through the same stuff, what, what did it really take to, to get you to commit to this?

Darren Findling: Well, I think that the concept that you just refer to it, the superhero kind of feeling.

Darren Findling: Is even to this day, there are moments where I can feel myself wanting to take over something or saying to myself, Oh, I'll just do that. I can, I can get it done faster, better, or whatever. Often, I've got people around me that are constantly reminding me. to stay out of that. You delegate it and elevate to ensure the growth will occur.

Darren Findling: And it's that simple reminder that has been a great tool for me, but I think that the watershed moment would have been the first time I ever did delegate something and saw that the people that were doing the work were actually doing it better than me. And I reflect on those moments and I said, wow, I can't believe I waited that long to stop doing that task of which I wasn't particularly great at and I felt I was the only one that could do it.

Jan Roos: So anyone who's out there, you know, if you're doing every single job in the business, you know, take a reminder to, first of all, realize that you're an attorney that's, whose time is worth hundreds of dollars an hour and you know, standing the checks might not be the best use of time. And even beyond that, you know, Being the position where you're really a CEO of your own company and making decisions that could be worth well more than hundreds of dollars an hour is, you know, how you end up getting to the level that Darren's at today.

Jan Roos: Now as far as next plans, Darren you mentioned, you know, on the goal to create the best organization in the country, what are sort of your plans for the future and how you plan to get there?

Darren Findling: Sure. So we have a plan of having a hundred lawyers. In this business, that plan is going to occur. It's going to occur by continuing to do the things that we do very well with more focus and discipline around them.

Darren Findling: So we have a, we do a lot of planning. The planning is done on various rhythms, whether it be weekly, Quarterly mid year and year end to ensure that we are always steering this business in the right direction towards the goal of 100 lawyers building this extraordinary business that we have dreamt up and written down and put in black and white.

Darren Findling: Transparently for everyone to see and know where we're going. So we talk about it all the time. Decisions that are made on a week to week basis are designed to steer the business in that direction. And everyone needs to be paddling or rowing the boat in the same direction to ensure that we're going to achieve all those goals.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's fantastic. You know, this has been such a valuable interview, Darren, for anyone who's kind of looking at the mindset, I hope you can kind of read between the lines to think about. How Darren's thinking about these things from a day to day basis, and I'm ultimately know when you look at the success that he's had a lot of this stuff is correlated.

Jan Roos: So, you know, the mindset becomes such an important thing and maybe taking a look at some of these books that Darren's spoken about, maybe listen to this podcast another time because it's, he's dropping some really good nuggets here as far as people that you might be. What's the best place to find you online there and what kind of people should be reaching out?

Darren Findling: So I'm always happy to talk to other entrepreneurs, to other business leaders, to individuals that are just curious that. I'm always happy to help. I was mentored along the way. I'm still being mentored, and I always enjoy mentoring others. I'm also interested in business to business opportunities. So, you can reach me through my website, the.

Darren Findling: theprobatepro.com. And I respond to every email, every communication, and I'd love to talk to people. All

Jan Roos: right. Awesome. And thank you so much for that, that offer, Darren. That's, that's really helpful. I'm sure there's going to be some people that are going to reach out. If you're thinking about it, he's he's making the offer.

Jan Roos: So there's something to take advantage of. Darren, thanks again for taking the time. There's been some really valuable lessons here.

Darren Findling: I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you about it.

Jan Roos: Wonderful. So thank you guys so much. It's been another episode of the case. We'll podcast and stay tuned. I hope we can have a guess a half as interesting and value driven as Darren next week.

Jan Roos: But until next time, this is Jan Roos.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to the law firm growth podcast for show notes, free resources, and more head on over to case fuel. com slash podcast. Looking forward to catching up on the next episode.

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