Relaunch Your Law Practice with a Business Focus

Law Firm Growth Podcast Episode 41: The Art of the Relaunch With Judie Saunders

Narrator: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Law Firm Growth podcast, where we share the latest tips, tactics and strategies for scaling your practice from the top experts in the world of growing law firms. Are you ready to take your practice to the next level? Let's get started.

Jan Roos: Hey, everybody, welcome back to the case fuel podcast. I'm your host, as always, Jan Roos, and we are here today with a very interesting episode. So I'm here with Judy Saunders, who is the owner of Julie Saunders law over in New York and New Jersey. And in addition to having a really interesting story she'd originally listed that I reached out because she's a listener to the podcast.

Jan Roos: So it was really great to connect with her a little bit. And now here we are on a podcast. So I'm really excited to have it. So thanks for coming on Judy.

Judie Saunders: Thank you for having me. Love your show.

Jan Roos: Awesome. Yeah. So basically, and the drill more than a lot of people, we always like to set up with a story.

Jan Roos: Can you tell us a little bit about how you got to where you are with running the practice today? [00:01:00]

Judie Saunders: Sure. So I feel as if my practice, my story is, so resembles what's going on right now with this horrible pandemic. If I give myself a quick answer to that, I am a relauncher. So I started my practice or I went out on my own.

Judie Saunders: After spending some time in politics and policy, I had worked for a time with Mayor Michael Bloomberg and then just before that I had worked as a litigator or prosecutor in the Brooklyn District Attorney's Office. And then I decided, wow, it would really be interesting, really be fun if I opened up a law practice, started a family, and moved.

Judie Saunders: So that didn't go so well. So what happened is that I, over the next couple of years, my practice really constricted or got smaller, and I spent more time raising a family. I have two boys. So in the end of [00:02:00] 2018, really in Ernst in 2019 is when I relaunched my practice, opened the doors. Super excited.

Judie Saunders: And really the main difference of going out the first time, opening the doors the first time and this relaunch was an understanding that I needed to focus, do a huge deep dive into under. Understanding finance, understanding how to run a business, not how to lawyer. So that's where I started in 2019.

Judie Saunders: Understanding the balance sheets, profit and loss, watching the money, watching the dimes, understanding how to do that, understanding marketing and all of those things that I didn't have before. So that's where I am right now and just using tools and resources like your podcast and some of the great guests you had on there to really make a go of this business and enjoying that process.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's awesome. I would say for the first part, on any given Sunday, we have a lot of [00:03:00] people that might find themselves in a similar situation where maybe, Hey, going around as a solo and not being in the same position that they expected to be. But I'll say in this particular situation, if you weren't in that coming out on the other side of this pandemic it's probably more than likely.

Jan Roos: And there's going to be a lot of people looking to do a relaunch when things end up getting, a little bit back to normal, regardless of where you are in the country. So let me ask you this. As far as the motivation behind the relaunch, was there any sort of a like a come to Jesus moment where you said, okay, this is basically it, this is enough.

Jan Roos: And this is like why I want to relaunch the practice.

Judie Saunders: So I'd have to say there wasn't any one come to Jesus. It was honestly a constant low lying pull. It was always there. It was always an energy like this is going to happen. When's the right time? And I'd have to say that I always accepted, so over that time that I was mostly home and raising the kids, I was still accepting some cases, still doing trying to do [00:04:00] trials to keep up on my litigation skills, doing the CLE, the continued education courses.

Judie Saunders: So there was always that pull, always that low lying, this is going to happen. I'm going to do this. I want to do this. Love the area, love the field and then finally it, I'd have to say that if I could pinpoint one type of event, would have to be, and this is a kind of a just random story, I was working out, I was at the gym, and ran into a friend Linda Lattenberg.

Judie Saunders: And she was mentioning to me, a fellowship that she was running, or a fellowship that she had heard of. It was called Inspiring Capital. And what it turned out to be was this really great cohort of 15 women from different backgrounds. Finance Communications, marketing, and the purpose of the fellowship, which I applied for and was accepted, it was to look [00:05:00] at business and business with a purpose.

Judie Saunders: If you're going to be coming back, after a career break of however long, a year, five years, ten years why not come back with purpose, with a business mindset, and be really mindful and conscientious. So I'd have to say that if there was anyone come to Jesus, it was probably a come to Jesus in the gym and speaking to all that friends.

Jan Roos: And then that's actually such sounds like such a great opportunity too. So I don't know, not everyone has a cohort of 15 people that they can have to help relaunch a business, but that sounds like a really fantastic opportunity. So let's actually dive into that a little bit more. So basically we have, you're in the position where you've made the first decision to move forward, which is always the most important step.

Jan Roos: How did things start off for you? And then what, what ended up changing first, as far as what you're doing with the practice?

Judie Saunders: I'd have to say, and anyone that is thinking of relaunching, even after this pandemic, I don't necessarily believe in or espouse, having a mentor, maybe [00:06:00] because I don't think that I ever really had one specific mentor, but I would say that it is so important to find a partner, someone to bounce ideas off of So how it started in the first place, it was me setting that, and this word, it used to be just, I know it's used all the time, me setting a boundary before it was always either, doing work in a co working space or only working in, when the family hours permitted, but it was really setting up and establishing the hard boundaries.

Judie Saunders: I'm back to work. The office is open during this time. No, I can't pick you up, you know to my kids or no I can't take you surfing. I have two very avid, surfers It was really setting those hard boundaries, signing a lease on an office, and going to the office, and really doing, reminding myself of that hard work, that I had done, as a prosecutor, or done when I worked in politics.

Judie Saunders: Going back to those type of hours, setting up those boundaries, and starting to say no, to some other, things that [00:07:00] weren't a priority. So that's how it started off. And then I really think that I picked up momentum with this cohort Linda Lautenberg and Judy her partner, they now started, they moved away from that cohort and they started a company called Evolve Me, which is just, they do beautiful work as far.

Judie Saunders: As if you are a relauncher or if you're someone in a pivot or in a career or even in these times They really do beautiful work of bringing you in giving you that circle to bounce ideas off of Helping you understand business. We did some work around understanding technologies, which was Really fun to see, come home and I would asking my boys.

Judie Saunders: Have you heard of this app and that app? And it was really fun that they hadn't. And to know that I had gotten that exposure beforehand. So I think that's really instrumental that when you are. Doing some type of relaunch, some type of pivot. If you can find someone and there are [00:08:00] groups out there to just, even to hear, I'm thinking about offering this service or doing that really helped me get momentum on this relaunch.

Jan Roos: Yeah. And I think that's such an important thing too, because you see this happening all the time. And whether it's, somebody relaunching a business or somebody getting back to the gym after a long layoff or who knows what, I think that the ability to get that momentum is such an important thing because when sometimes people will go through and they'll put their nose to the grindstone, but definitely kudos to you, Judy, for first of all, making, I think it's really important to set yourself.

Jan Roos: Those distinctions. So the stuff like getting the office, right? Like you're signaling to yourself by virtue of where you're going to be, how serious you are to being committed to this. And then once you start getting the results, you're almost building power around this idea of this really being a new thing in your practice.

Jan Roos: So if anyone's listening to this, keep that in mind. If you might've tried and not had the best results from this, definitely take a, just definitely take, The splitting of these things seriously and making sure that you're having those [00:09:00] quick wins in the beginning.

Jan Roos: So why not to touch like, pivot a little bit. So one of the things you mentioned is that you're diving for the first time into these numbers and these just more traditional business aspects versus the traditional law ones. So were you surprised to find anything with how your practice had been running and what did you change from that perspective?

Judie Saunders: I would say it is nothing. Like I was doing before it was I realized that I had a real fear Around it was the fear of the unknown, you know before you're just plugging along. You're bootstrapping it and Not really digging into these principles that I instinctively knew that you needed but because I wasn't trained You know, we'll hear it a thousand times.

Judie Saunders: We're not trained to do that in law school but I was You're not trained to do that. You say, okay, I'm going to open a law practice and you think somehow magically, the back office is going to run itself, but it was really just, And if I can use your term from [00:10:00] earlier, having a come to Jesus moment and saying, what is scaring you?

Judie Saunders: What is terrifying you? Just do it. So when I did that, I had also been working on a board at a local health clinic that offers free health services. And they had a gentleman on there, one of my board members that I work with, and he had spent his life in business and finance. And that was my first starting point, just approaching.

Judie Saunders: Can you just tell me the issues? If you're, I put them in my scenario. If you're opening the doors to a new business, foundational documents that I need? And and this now also goes hand in hand with some of my own research that I was doing, looking around, reading books. I started to read ferociously any or, and I shouldn't say read cause I'm a podcast listener and an audio book.

Judie Saunders: So audio book, listening, I, nonstop to every business book, profit first, anything I could get my hands on. So that kind of was really the second thing, just opening back [00:11:00] the curtains and the doors that scared me and looking into the finance, setting up the balance sheet, setting up the profit and loss, looking at what are the profit margins, what numbers I need to hit, all those things that I didn't do before.

Judie Saunders: That's probably the biggest difference to what's going on now.

Jan Roos: Okay, and it's also like super evident that you know, you're definitely a voracious learner judy So I wanted to dig into that a little bit like as far as like how you know There's a lot of information out there and I have to say it's definitely of varying quality So as far as like how you ended up you know getting those recommendations for the first books I guess, you know the a meta question is, how do you go about?

Jan Roos: Prioritizing what information you wanted to get in your practice at a given time. And then secondly, if you had any, books that you thought were super helpful, like what could you recommend to somebody who's in this position that they're considering a relaunch like you were?

Judie Saunders: Sure. I think that I, So what I did is that I said to myself, Judy, I started to talk to friends that I [00:12:00] knew that had MBAs. And I had even flirted with the idea of maybe I need to do some type of, should I go back to school with this relaunch? Should I do an MBA online program to really get that kind of foundational finance?

Judie Saunders: And the resounding answer was no. You do not need an MBA. So then what I did is that I started to look at the curriculum of traditional MBA programs. And then I also went online and looked at them being offered in your professional study. So for individuals that have advanced degrees or just wanted to go back or add to their careers, I started reading that course curriculum, reading those outlines as a cue to me as to, and especially the programs of, That had professional study curriculum.

Judie Saunders: I started to really read those course outlines and that kind of gave me some buzzwords that I know that I needed. So I started with that. I did find the book profit first [00:13:00] very helpful. I think the other book and I'll have to confirm was, I think it was a three day MBA or seven day MBA. I forget the exact title.

Judie Saunders: That's another one that I jumped in and it And then I started looking, listening to Seth Godin. It just expanded from there. So I started with what I thought to be. Would be the concrete fundamental. And then I expanded from there and that, it led me to this.

Judie Saunders: And then the other thing I started to, and also you'll get suggestions, your audible search or your and that's how it led me to other books. But I knew going back to those areas that I had no idea, but knew you needed that. So I would just search for those topics. So for example, profit and loss profit margins.

Judie Saunders: I started to do searches into those areas

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's super thorough. I don't know if I've ever heard about somebody taking that same strategy, but going all the way directly to the source material, that's, yeah that's really good. And as far as people, if just to play the devil's advocate to the [00:14:00] people who might not want to take the time, You obviously have a really busy life, Judy.

Jan Roos: You've got your two sons, you've got the practice that you've been not only running, but growing aggressively in the past year and a half. What kind of time investment are you putting into to really learning all this stuff and where are you finding the time in your day to do that?

Judie Saunders: I'll have to be fully transparent with everyone.

Judie Saunders: There's not going to be You know, let's, we all know that it's a myth of the perfect work life balance. I think that what has worked for me and what I think would work for most individuals, Is really, I'd have to say my hack, my pro hack has been the audible listening. So if I'm on the train, cause I commute before the, before this whole pandemic, I was commuting say three days a week into the city to court appearances.

Judie Saunders: And I use that time to listen to the books on the train, no matter what I was doing. If I'm listening to a podcast or a YouTube video. I'm digesting, I think that [00:15:00] was the key, to digest a large bulk of this material by doing it in an audible form. audio form so that I could keep working or keep moving or if I'm driving I was Non stop doing that.

Judie Saunders: I think that's how I did it. And then now I really Relied on some of the old tactics that I use. So for example law school, you're gonna pull all nighters You're gonna you're gonna put you know, the family, finish cooking or whatever it is that you're doing And then it's the second shift.

Judie Saunders: We all know the second shift. It's reemploying that. I think that's not, I think that's how I, that's how it works, right? That's how I'm making it work. Just using that same laser focus. That got me other things that I wanted in life and applying it to this relaunch.

Jan Roos: Yeah. And I'd also say probably it's Oh, it was a little bit more aggressive on them.

Jan Roos: And hopefully you're not pulling too many all nighters these days. So I think it's the more you have to change, the more energy you need to break the pattern, right?

Judie Saunders: Yes. [00:16:00]

Jan Roos: So let's switch topics a little bit. So we've talked about the financial stuff, but from the marketing side, what kind of changes did you start putting in place and how did that end up like working?

Judie Saunders: So that the marketing side is the one thing that I have been actually from the beginning, laser focus on. I realized that I no longer wanted to exist in the fee space. Store famine waiting for the client, or waiting for the random referral. What i'm doing right now is i'm actually trying to implement a more global strategy a way to look at marketing And always asking myself the question why am I doing that?

Judie Saunders: Why am I going to send that out? Or who's going to be interested in that? Or are they, is someone really going to take something from this? Again, we all are time crunch and I do not, my goal is to not put out a piece of content out there that you just, it's not going to just make you just a smidgen wiser or make you a [00:17:00] little bit more curious.

Judie Saunders: So that's my Intent and purpose and then it's working with a consultant to try to help me Craft, message that are on point, you know with email marketing. That's the one thing that I'm focusing on right now. I Love LinkedIn for all of its different resources that it has but but a lot of I'm thinking about the content Thinking about the email marketing, thinking how to best serve my audience.

Judie Saunders: Those are the things that I'm thinking about with the marketing piece.

Jan Roos: Gotcha. I know you mentioned earlier that you were a fan of Seth Godin and also a huge fan over here, by the way, having that. I also think too, I feel like there's been this issue with, A lot of the stuff, I think it was just this kind of, end of the last decade, mostly it was just like when, Twitter and Facebook were cool and you could just get a lot of results from just posting stuff every day.

Jan Roos: I think people got into a pattern where they were just churning out content for the sake of having something to keep the algorithm happy and people lost sight of. What actually was like, providing [00:18:00] value, beyond having an angle that, that ends up benefiting someone just to get like super tactical.

Jan Roos: What are you doing to build your email list right now?

Judie Saunders: So I have been, it's funny today, I just posted on my wall, asking myself the question, Where are my people living? Where are my clients living? What are they reading? I'm trying to really dig down and get to that person that needs to hear my message.

Judie Saunders: And that's, and I think that I do that tactically by Continuing to ask myself that question because even today I thought of two other areas that I hadn't even looked at before. Part of my practice focuses on, the abuse of individuals by Either authority figures and or authority figures or institutions.

Judie Saunders: And I started to think to myself where are these people? Where are they? What are they reading? What are they doing? And how [00:19:00] could my service help them? So I kind always Try to make myself expand my mind and not just go to You know what where I would normally think, go to a trade association or you know go to Send out a post i'm always just Trying to ask myself, stretch my mind and think, where is that one person that could be helped by this?

Judie Saunders: So I think that's tactically how I try to approach the whole marketing. I've also been thinking about doing some really targeted writing and blogging. I've done some, but I, I think that's an area that I know that can serve, but really asking myself. Questions as I'm writing.

Judie Saunders: So that's what I'm constantly doing when I'm putting out content and marketing.

Jan Roos: And it's also, yeah, I can tell too. So it was looking at your your website a little bit before we ended up jumping on this call and I clicked on the resources tab. [00:20:00] And I saw actually such a really interesting thing, like you put together like a little bit of a resource package as far as stuff that was pertaining to the to the crisis.

Jan Roos: So I both wanted to say that's really super interesting, ask you about that specifically, but in the more general sense, how has everything been affecting you with the pandemic so far? And what kind of stuff have you been doing to just get through this?

Judie Saunders: So One of the benefits, of course, of being a solo or a small business is having the ability, having the agility to do a pivot and what part of the, one of the things that I like to do and one of my skills, is getting in reading, pulling out, looking at legislation, understanding that was one of the things that I did in one of my prior jobs.

Judie Saunders: So as soon as. I started, and this is something that I just do in my spare time, listening to policy, seeing what's going on congressionally. So as soon as I started to, hear about the fam first the Families First, the different phases of the CARES Act, I started to say to myself how could [00:21:00] this, help the business?

Judie Saunders: How could it help colleagues? The immediate impact that it's had on my business is that, of course, there's no traveling, there's no going to courts. So everyone, everything has gone online. You're watching, you're seeing, how all this is affecting clients, but also, other small businesses.

Judie Saunders: So I started to say to myself, even to colleagues that, our fellow attorneys reading the CARES Act, it's putting out, this is what I'm seeing going on with the disaster relief funding. These are, this is my experience. It's looking for one thing that I like to do was try to find those phone numbers.

Judie Saunders: That that someone will actually pick up. So it's just sending out a post like, guys, you have a question about the SBA loans. This is who you should contact, or this is how I'm reading it. This is how I'm construing it. And that was the impetus and the reason for putting out those resources.

Judie Saunders: What can I do if I can't get into court, if I'm not able to meet with children or with [00:22:00] individuals in relation to. My advocacy work or, the civil litigation, what can I do as a business owner? So that's how I saw. That's where I saw that I could use my skills immediately.

Judie Saunders: And that's, and so that's what I did.

Jan Roos: Yeah. I think it's such an elegant skillset too. Like for anyone who's listening, it's you don't necessarily have to have. A background in legislation to be able to do what judy did, you know It's about really catering to what you can offer and again It's like with the stuff that i've been seeing doing the best in this whole kind of pandemic It's like all right.

Jan Roos: Yeah, we you know, we know you take zoom meetings We know you got the banner on the front of the site. That's table stakes at this point It's going that extra step To do what judy did and actually leverage something that's unique in a first way And it's actually going to leave people with value that ends up being you know What actually kinds ends up driving success in the long term and then one of the so and then One of the last thing too, so just I know we've we mentioned a couple times But the kind of civil litigation part of your practice and you know The fact that you're a certified b corp, which is something that's very rare to find in the In [00:23:00] the law firm world.

Jan Roos: So could you tell us a little bit more about that? And how the whole how the whole thing works and then, what sort of changes that you had to make your law firm to do that?

Judie Saunders: Sure. So the process, one of the things to talk about, so I will try to be brief with becoming a certified B Corp.

Judie Saunders: And it was it was a part of that whole process that grew out of learning the business side and how. To run a business and it also then it came to me. What type of business do you want to be? What do you want to say to your clients to people looking in looking from the outside? And I started to research, you know the different certifications And also, as part of the fellowship, that's where I first was introduced to B Corps.

Judie Saunders: Now, of course, B Corps have been around for decades. So some of the more well known are Ben and Jerry's, the retailer Patagonia, Eileen Fisher, they're the trailblazers. And the value of [00:24:00] being a B Corp is that you are saying to, you're saying to the world, you're saying to customers, you're saying to your hiring, to your team, we value you.

Judie Saunders: We value the local community. We value. The environment we value the global community the process was vigorous and it's something that i'm actually that i'm glad that I went through early on in the real the relaunch So from a service side, it's turning over financials. It's answering questions on your impact on the environment.

Judie Saunders: Are you implementing safety? Are you, if you have hiring, how do you treat them? What does your employee handbook say? It's actually changing your governing documents. So the process was great, but the motivation to do it was that being a certified B Corp, so aligned with what I believe as a person, as a business owner, it was almost, it was a no brainer for me to join [00:25:00] and to say, they often give the analogy that being a certified B Corp is analogous when someone has not heard of that, if you were to pick up, say, a bag of coffee and you see a fair trade on it, it immediately signals to you, the consumer, that this product is safe.

Judie Saunders: Okay. From the ground to the store, to the supplier, to the farm, everyone is treated fairly. And that's what I wanted to say to the world in this new business. That you was not only you as the client, but my team members, associates, everyone is considered the impact that we have on our environment.

Judie Saunders: That's also considered. We're not just, So I know that a lot of times it's in, in the industry or any industry in any business, you'll say to your clients, we care about you. We're responsive. No, I wanted to go one step beyond and let people know that As a certified B Corp, not only am I [00:26:00] responsive to you as a client, but I care about the community that I sit in and I work in.

Judie Saunders: I have an office office closer to home in New Jersey. So I care about, and I'm active in that community. I'm also very active when I, in in boards that I sit on in New York city. So that's what the whole B Corp says.

Jan Roos: Yeah. And another kind of follow on questions for anyone who might be considering this, like you've now had the opportunity to have a more traditional law firm and then actually gone through the entire process to have a B Corp.

Jan Roos: What would you say is the major difference as far as, being on both sides of that what can you, what's the, what's changed the most for the business?

Judie Saunders: It's being one thing that's, one thing that's changed is you really Start to think of yourself As a business you're you've entered you're setting you're laying down the foundations to be a business It's not just running a practice.

Judie Saunders: It's not just you know, apparently running to court, you know Turning out, not really thinking about [00:27:00] the business side You're really setting up these principles to run yourself as a business and then also you're putting on that extra layer and that, this is a difference. So I think about, where, and you need to do this in the certification process, where are you even getting in your office supplies from?

Judie Saunders: How are you disposing of, your waste as part of the office? Even in the office that I'm in, what type of standards, the lighting they use, all of those things that I wouldn't have considered before are now part of the way that I run the office, the way I run the practice.

Jan Roos: Yeah.

Jan Roos: All right. That's the, yeah, that's super interesting. And then for anyone who's considering that, this is out getting a little bit, it's been super, super helpful for thanks for for coming on Judy, but for anyone who's, who might want to have any questions, I hope I'm not opening the floodgates here, but what would be the best the best way for anyone to to find out more about your get in touch.

Judie Saunders: Absolutely, they can email me at [email protected] and I have no [00:28:00] problem with my phone, 917 674 7753. I'd love to help, this is how I've done my relaunch, by getting help from others so I am here and I'm ready to help anyone else.

Jan Roos: Okay. Thank you so much for that. It's a super generous offer and again, like I said, I hope it doesn't open the floodgates, but if anyone wants to go ahead and reach out to you about anything, and this has been a really interesting and far ranging conversation.

Jan Roos: But be free to reach out. Yeah. Thanks again, Judy. Super appreciate you reaching out and it's been awesome to have you on the podcast.

Judie Saunders: Thank you. It's been great speaking with you.

Jan Roos: All right. Thanks for everybody. And then we'll have another episode of The Law Firm Growth Podcast for you next week.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Growth Podcast.

Narrator: For show notes, free resources, and more, head on over to casefuel.com/podcast. Looking forward to catching up on the next [00:29:00] episode.