Loan Repayment for Lawyers: Strategies for Forgiveness, Career Changes, and Financial Freedom

Law Firm Growth Podcast Episode 50: Do You Have to Wait Until You Pay Off Law School Debt to Start Your Firm? With Travis Hornsby

Narrator: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Law Firm Growth podcast, where we share the latest tips, tactics and strategies for scaling your practice from the top experts in the world of growing law firms. Are you ready to take your practice to the next level? Let's get started.

Jan Roos: Hey everybody, welcome back to The Law Firm Growth Podcast. I'm your host as always, Jan Roos, and I am here today with a very interesting topic. We have Travis Hornsby on the show today. And Travis is the founder of Student Loan Planner. He's got a really interesting story which we'll get into in a little bit, but I think this is a really interesting show because there's two aspects of growth.

Jan Roos: It's how much you're making and how much you're spending. And as all attorneys know, it is tough to graduate law school these days without a lot of debt. So we're going to see about some creative situations. I'm not sure creative would be the word, but some solutions that Travis and his company have come up with to helping lawyers just like you get out of the student loan dilemma.

Jan Roos: So thanks for being on the show, [00:01:00] Travis. Oh, yeah. Great to be here. All right. Awesome. Let's get started with the situation as a whole. So you guys have worked with hundreds of lawyers, but can you tell us either some anecdotes of some people you've worked with or any industry stats about what it looks like?

Jan Roos: Not that other people don't know already from firsthand experience, but what's average student debt situation that an attorney is facing today?

Travis Hornsby: Yeah. So our average is about 225, 000. So that's like over a little under 300 attorneys that we've advised about 4, 000 clients total for us about at one point.

Travis Hornsby: Little over a billion dollars basically is what we've advised total. So we're the largest student loan Specific consulting group in the country. So we've seen some definitely seen some pretty wild stuff So I don't need to tell your listeners you guys know then the legal field There's like a bimodal distribution of salaries Maybe you could even say tri modal because you've got the big law salaries.

Travis Hornsby: So you've got the 180, 190 K and up, and then you've got the small family law office make an 80, 90 K. And then you've got public interest law where you're making 40, 50, 60 K. [00:02:00] So that's a lot of different ranges of salaries. And if you listen to like most popular personal finance advice, it's just a one size fits all pay off your debt strategy.

Travis Hornsby: And that's just not really what you need to do with student loan debt because it's a. It's a government program that has caused the debt to be pretty high. It's increased access to law school, which is really good. But the thing is we're taking all of our old tools in the toolbox and trying to fight a problem that's totally different and needs unique solutions.

Travis Hornsby: So I'm not saying that everybody should go for forgiveness, but significantly more people should go for forgiveness and are currently going for it. And we have the math to back it up.

Jan Roos: Yeah, and we're talking about this a little bit in the pre call, but there's a lot of different people, and not just people who recently graduated law firms, but like as far as clients too, do you have any sort of averages or anything you can tell us about the distribution of ages?

Jan Roos: Because I'm sure it's not just people who graduated, right?

Travis Hornsby: I would say the average age of our client is probably 30. Because we have a lot of people that we advise a few years out of school We have people that we advise immediately following school. [00:03:00] So 25 26 27, right? And then we have people that you know Are in their mid 30s and thought they were going to make more progress in their loans than they did and they're wondering what the heck happened So I would say that's probably a typical average I would say our average client Is engaged to be married or just got married and is trying to navigate the complexities of income based repayment with Including a spouse's income in the picture, too They're trying to buy a house or maybe have they just already bought a house Maybe they are expecting their first or second kid and they're trying to make the finances of daycare work with also their student loans And maybe they're trying to switch careers see this all the time where somebody will go into big law and say, you know What I'd like to have my life back even if it means making less money How do I do that when I have three hundred thousand dollars from a private law school?

Travis Hornsby: so The thing that I see is being in a legal field, it's not necessarily a super stable thing where you're going to do one job for 30 years. So what I see a lot of is people that are in lower paying jobs that are trying to work their way into a higher paying [00:04:00] job or people that are in those higher paying jobs that are looking to.

Travis Hornsby: Have a little bit more of a lifestyle job and go into corporate or something in house, right? Or maybe even going public interest route. So like the one key idea I want to introduce to the podcast listener here is The idea of student loans being a tax. So if we had a system like they have in the uk Where they charge you 9 percent of your income for 30 years and they give you a deduction of about 30 grand So it's pretty transparent that's an income tax or your debt is just a debt And the reason why people don't view student loans in the united states as an income tax is because our system is a lot more complicated So in the case of a public interest lawyer, you're having to pay 10 percent of your income for 10 years with no taxes on any of the forgiven balance at the end of those 10 years.

Travis Hornsby: So that's a example of student loans very transparently being a tax. Why do people not view it as a tax? The PSLF program, public service loan forgiveness has gotten tons of bad press. There's all kinds of headlines out there, [00:05:00] 99 percent rejection rate, things like that. The reason that happened is because Congress passed a Changes to the student loan rules that basically made it so that you couldn't really qualify for this Unless you have direct loans.

Travis Hornsby: Direct loans didn't really start getting issued except 2010 mostly and beyond So a lot of these lawyers that would be applying before 2020 would have had incorrect loans Which would have got them a rejection rate and they only would have applied if they didn't know that they didn't qualify So you have this false headline that's generated So now people don't trust loan forgiveness Even though I talk to people all the time that are getting their loans forgiven tax free You So that's one route towards loans forgiveness.

Travis Hornsby: And then there's the other route to loan forgiveness. So the other route to loan forgiveness is you're working in a private sector job and instead of paying for 10 years based on your income, now you're paying for 20 or 25 years based on your income. And the only catch is when your balance is forgiven you have to pay income taxes on that forgiven balance Now that seems stressful, but you can actually prepare for it by simply putting aside [00:06:00] A certain percentage of your income usually it's five to ten percent of your income into an investment account alongside your required payment And then you'll be able to pay that tax liability at the end of those 20 or 25 years.

Travis Hornsby: So in other words, student loan debt is either a tax or debt, and if people realize that, then the student loan debt that they have would not be changing their life decisions, would not be influencing their life decisions, and it wouldn't be the mental health stressor. That it is today.

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's super interesting.

Jan Roos: And it feeds into some of the classic narratives that you were bringing up earlier. It's like a lot of times, and this is a law from growth podcast and some of the more vocal listeners that have reached out. A lot of these people are, it tends to see, I would say a lot of people that are graduating law school today, Maybe they just have a more entrepreneurial spirit because of how they came up in the world.

Jan Roos: And maybe it's just that the option is that they don't have the big law job. So they're going into this stuff a lot earlier, but this is a huge solution overcome because the default solution to that is just kill yourself for five or 10 [00:07:00] years working in big law, pick up a lot more gray hairs that you're going to otherwise.

Jan Roos: And if that's an option not to have, then I think people should absolutely explore that. It's interesting. I was not to make this too political, but interesting guy that I was following a little bit earlier was Andrew Yang and his bid for the Democratic candidacy. But he actually had a similar thing, which I think was based off that European program that you have.

Jan Roos: So basically what you're saying is that the tools are here, but it's just the way that it's set up as a program right now makes it extremely difficult to navigate. Is that right?

Travis Hornsby: Yeah, the tools are here and they're just not obvious. So the problem with the difference in comparing our system to the European system is the European system strictly regulates what universities are allowed to charge.

Travis Hornsby: So our system doesn't do that. So our system changed in 2006. Where the idea was a noble one to expand access to professional degree programs The way they did that was saying instead of putting a cap on borrowing like you do for stafford loans Where you can only borrow up to forty thousand five hundred [00:08:00] a year or twenty thousand five hundred for a law degree Instead of having a cap on borrowing now, we're going to allow you to borrow an unlimited amount up to the cost of attendance through the federal system So in the UK, you're very regulated on how much you're allowed to borrow for your education.

Travis Hornsby: Whereas in the U S you're not regulated at all. And so what happened is starting in 2006, you had a lot of schools that realized they could literally charge anything as long as people would sign up. And what happened in 2008, nine, 10, 11, The legal job market got really bad press. So in contrast to some other fields like dentistry or medicine or something like that, that didn't necessarily have a bunch of bad wall street journal headlines with, Hey, is this field worth it anymore?

Travis Hornsby: Economically, the law field, the legal field had that, had those headlines. So there's been a little bit of cost resistance just because of a little bit of an awareness of the legal job market, not being the slam dunk guarantee that people might've thought it was. And so people just need to realize now, like I think there's a little bit more awareness of that, but there's [00:09:00] not really that good of awareness of.

Travis Hornsby: If you go into a big law job and you want to start your own firm, say you go to Columbia law school, let's say 300, 400, 000 of student loan debt. And you go there and you come out, then you're making, what is the current associate salary? Is it one 90 still?

Jan Roos: Oh, geez. I know, honestly, I know way more about the small family firms as far as gross revenues than the actual salaries of big law because it's not really who we work with.

Travis Hornsby: Let's even talk about the small family firms. So you're making guaranteed money versus not guaranteed money. So you're making 80 to 100 K a year. In the associate world and you think you've got to say you have 200 000 of debt and you think I've got to pay off my 200 000 of debt before I can do my dream of starting my own firm So say you have that mindset.

Travis Hornsby: After taxes, maybe you bring home 5 000 a month And let's say you have to live on let's say you're living super frugally You live on two KA month from that, so you have maybe three to five KA month that can go into loans. Let's just call that 40 to 60 KA year. So if you have 200 K plus interest in everything, you're talking about a [00:10:00] minimum of five years before you're able to take your dream of starting your own practice by the horn, so to speak.

Travis Hornsby: So that's a long time and things can happen in those five years. What I typically see will happen is somebody who has this dream, they'll meet their. future spouse And they'll become a little bit more risk averse. Maybe they'll pick up a mortgage Maybe they'll have a kid or two and then they'll start thinking shoot that guaranteed job with health insurance Feels pretty good, and I don't feel like I can take a risk So instead if you realized that your future goals are I want to run my own office and I want to have A 100k income target.

Travis Hornsby: That's my goal. But how do I do that with my 200 000 of student loans? So if you're running your own office, you can set up a 401k plan You can do tax planning to be really cognizant of what your taxable income is and you can realize that your student loans are Just a percentage of that taxable income so if you focus on reducing your taxable income your student loan payment could be Quite low.

Travis Hornsby: So if you take into account, it's 10 percent of your discretionary income, right? But let's say you're married [00:11:00] and then all that. You could get into a situation where you could Exclude your spouse's income if you know what you're doing by filing taxes married filing separate Then you could max out your retirement account and reduce the percentage they're taking on your loans And so you could get your payment on your 200, 000 of student loans down to 500 a month Let's say and then in the first year after law school graduation your priority instead of paying down your loans Is to build up an emergency fund that's going to have at least six months to a year's worth of expenses in it Which is going to give you the fuel you need to go take the risk of starting your own practice And the runway to get to the point where that practice is profitable so that when you do Start hitting all these major milestones You don't have to go immediately abandon it because you've already lasted long enough to get up that ramp, right?

Travis Hornsby: So for any small business that i've seen at least most of them Maybe you can tell me if this was not the case for people you talk to jan But most of them don't immediately become successful. Is that fair?

Jan Roos: Yeah, I would, that's a understatement. Yes.

Travis Hornsby: A couple of lawyer friends I talked to that has done their practice.

Travis Hornsby: [00:12:00] They say that sort of the first couple of years where they're like, take anything kind of lawyers, it's like, Oh, you want me to write a will? Like I want to do IP law, but. Okay, it pays. And so there's this desperation to get any revenue you possibly can in the first couple of years. But the main thing is just hanging around.

Travis Hornsby: Most small businesses fail, I would say for two reasons. One is they don't have a focus or a niche, if you will. And then the second reason is they don't hang around long enough to be successful. The words you abandon the goal before you have time to realize it.

Jan Roos: I was going to say, and it's actually something that we were talking about in a recently released podcast, which is having the discipline to have the niche thing.

Jan Roos: And I'm like one of the point blank, one of the most expensive things about niching down is saying no to grandma's will or your cousin's landlord tenant issue or something like that. And it's almost a different. Rat race to escape. It's okay, cool. Maybe you're not fighting to get out of the business and start your own thing.

Jan Roos: But there's people that we've run into and gosh, I actually, I spoke to a guy who was a prospect not too long ago and this guy was probably in practice for [00:13:00] 30 or 40 years. And this guy still was charging, I think 1, 000 for any, this guy only did trust and say it's, he only charged 1, 000 for the same stuff that I would say in most markets in the United States for somebody who's a specialist, they're charging 25 to 35.

Jan Roos: Why? Because he's stretched to the end of his rope and he's just been having that same year over and over again. So the prospect of being able to start from the right foot, take the right kind of clients, build up a reputation as being a session specialist from day one is something that honestly I've taken those couple of years of just being the door lawyer and eventually getting ahead to the point where you can do that as a given.

Jan Roos: So if that's something that you're saying that people could actually start from the jump, then that would be extremely. Positive and save people not maybe not a couple years maybe a couple decades depending how those years play out

Travis Hornsby: Yeah I mean you have to give yourself the best chance of success, but again, you also need the runway you know if you're wanting to build a 747 or if you're wanting to take off in a 747 You're going to need a [00:14:00] lot.

Travis Hornsby: You're going to need a mile long runway at the airport, right? So it's like that when you're trying to build your own legal practice Like you're not going to be able to get off the ground if you don't have sufficient Sort of velocity and how do you get to that sufficient velocity? You have to attract clients that takes time even if you're the best person in the world at filing trademark applications And that's what you want to do You know, you're not going to immediately get seo traffic from google the second you put your web page up That might take six months before google even recognizes your page and if you can niche down even further Beyond, maybe you're only in a particular industry in the state of georgia or something like that what is the reason why somebody would work with you?

Travis Hornsby: Versus a major multinational kind of firm or something. Or major law firm so yeah, maybe cost but you want to think about yourself as being the craft beer so to speak How do you compete against Budweiser? You have a craft beer That's unique and that they could never do because it's very unique and specialized, right?

Travis Hornsby: So the thought process there is what does that exit velocity require? It requires cash

Jan Roos: Yeah,

Travis Hornsby: you don't want to you don't want to go borrowing [00:15:00] because you're not going to have a surefire thing That's going to happen and then you could just be stuck with a bunch of personal and credit card debt That's not a good way to do it.

Travis Hornsby: So what I think is you should plan for two to three years I think you should plan for two to three years in a worst case environment and so if you're That does mean being pretty frugal in the first phase of your career. So maybe you're living with roommates. Maybe you're, if you have a sympathetic other you're living in a, an apartment that's one bedroom smaller than what you'd prefer.

Travis Hornsby: Maybe you're having, if you have kids, maybe you're having the kids all sleep in one room. You have to be creative. The biggest thing I see is for cash burn is simply your real estate expenses and then transportation expenses. So those are the two big ones that I see. So if you can minimize those.

Travis Hornsby: And then you can ask yourself the question, how do I get to two or three years worth of cash runway? And yes, it's okay to take this risk despite having the 200, 000 of student loan debt because the student loan debt again is a percentage of your income. Guess what? If you go start your own law firm, guess what your new income is?

Travis Hornsby: It's 0. So what you can do [00:16:00] is go to studentaid. gov Immediately request a recertification of your income and if you're pursuing a forgiveness plan Anyway, if that's your default plan that you were planning on that you're going to get zero dollars a month on your student loans That's also going to count towards forgiveness If your plan is to eventually pay off the debt that you might opt to sign up for something called the revised pay as you earn plan specifically Which is going to give you subsidies on your interest that would amount to half of all of your interest covered by the government During this time while you're trying to start your law practice If you're married and you're trying to exclude your spouse's income You might choose the pay as you earn plan because that allows you more flexibility in that regard.

Travis Hornsby: But either without getting into the technical details what you should know as a listener is If the goal is to run your own law firm, then you want to get started as soon as possible You want to use the guaranteed income of being an employee to stash away savings and build up your cash reserves Which is going to allow you to have that longer runway To give you more space to take off.

Jan Roos: Yeah. And just to circle back on one thing to Travis. [00:17:00] So I think you'd mentioned saving up for that, let's call it a three to six month runway and a little bit more of a I guess conservative slash maybe not starting a fully fledged business thing. Would putting money into a savings account like that, would that be counted as something that you could deduct from your income?

Travis Hornsby: No, but if you're an employee, you're just saving money. If you start your own law firm, though, at that point, you might be able to deduct certain things. So for example, let's say your first six months in practice, you have a lot of losses because you don't have as much revenue as you have expenses.

Travis Hornsby: You can carry forward those losses and write that off against future business income. So for example, things like a leasing and office space or. Software expenses or license expenses if you have that negative net profit, but you can write that off against your future income You can't deduct it against your employee income while you're building the savings though.

Jan Roos: Okay, gotcha. Just wanted to clarify on that Okay, but yeah still this seems like introducing a new dimension to something at least what I knew for sure But I don't know too many people. It's just it's an albatross. Most people are wearing around their neck For a super long time. [00:18:00] So just to circle back on some dates, I think you mentioned, so 2006 is when some of these programs rolled out.

Jan Roos: I think it's been a little bit more realistic to do this since 2012. Has anything else happened recently had that's changed the climate here and where might we be looking for these things to change, maybe pertaining to the election that's coming up in November?

Travis Hornsby: If you think about it this way, 2009 is when income based repayment got introduced. So 2009 is when IBR started being a thing. 2012 slash 13 is when pay as you were and got a, got put into practice. And for people that don't know what that is, income based repayment, IBR was a plan where you're allowed to pay 15 percent of your income towards your student loans.

Travis Hornsby: At the end of 25 years, your loans will be forgiven. Okay. So 15 percent of your income, 25 years before that, okay. Before 2009, there was an income based program called Income Contingent Repayment, but it was 25 years of payments for 20 percent of your income. So virtually any lawyer on the planet would not benefit from that because they would pay their loans off over 25 years at 20 percent [00:19:00] of their income basically in full.

Travis Hornsby: So then IBR 2009 dropped it to 15 percent of income. Then in 2000 approximately 13 pay as you earn came into being which allowed you to pay 10 percent of your income And instead of 25 years it dropped it to 20 years So super generous right and then in 2015 16 you had revised to pay as you earn which lengthened the terms for forgiveness a little bit for graduate students But it also introduced the idea of interest subsidies on your loans, which had never happened before So I mentioned that history so that listeners understand that the trajectory Of student loan repayment programs and forgiveness programs in america has been more and more generous over time not less and less So what we've had over the past four years with president trump is a situation where we've had No change in student loan forgiveness rules.

Travis Hornsby: So he's proposed several times eliminating student loan forgiveness and trying to It's specifically like changing the public service loan forgiveness aspect of things But that's never [00:20:00] passed the House Republicans tried to pass an overhaul of the student loan rules in 2017 didn't pass So I think that what you can be comfortable with is student loan forgiveness Just as health care looks in America is going to continue to get more and more progressive In terms of policy and that has implications that has big implications for how you treat your loans because The reason why paying off your debt works as a financial strategy is not because that's the right plan It's because that gives you a high savings rate So I want people to think about this analogy for a second Pretend that you have some young children and the young children want to go to disney world And that's going to cost you 10 to 20 grand Okay, and let's say you're making 100 grand.

Travis Hornsby: So that's like a huge percentage of your annual earnings So you're looking at those pleading young eyes and that want to go so bad and you have to tell them no is it easier to tell them? No, if you have to pay 20 000 towards your loans Or is it easier to tell them no if you have to put 20 000 into your [00:21:00] retirement and investments and savings?

Travis Hornsby: Because of trying to start a business So the reality is starting a business thinking about investing instead of paying off your debt to grow your net worth Thinking about growing your equity of your law firm instead of paying down your debt to grow your net worth That's a lot harder to visualize for the average person And paying down your debt is a very easy emotional response to a financial problem like student loans And the thing is the problem got way worse in the past 20 years and again, why did it get way worse?

Travis Hornsby: it's because in the Positive goal of the government trying to expand access to education they also made it way more expensive because they enabled the schools to act like Greedy wall street banks and charge whatever they wanted to charge for the education without any regulation And so we've had runaway costs for tuition.

Travis Hornsby: Now. How do you respond in the world like that? It's just it's to if the math makes sense treat your debt like a [00:22:00] tax And then if you know all the loopholes, just like a good CPA would know the loopholes for income taxes, you can pay way less than you ever thought possible.

Jan Roos: Yeah. That's actually interesting.

Jan Roos: So it does look like things are trending in the right direction, but I guess the double edged sword to all the convenient programs is that this seems like to the outsider, it would be complex to navigate this world. What would be like the best way for people if, this sounds really appealing to them, what's a next step to take some action on this?

Travis Hornsby: One thing I didn't mention was that the next step if Joe Biden gets elected, he wants to reduce the payment of your income to 5 percent of your income instead of 10. And then he wants to make it so that there is no taxes on any forgiven student loan debt. So if that passed, it would make anybody that owes half of their income in student loan debt or more essentially want to go for forgiveness.

Travis Hornsby: So virtually every single lawyer that graduates with any level of law school debt at all. Even at state universities would want to go for forgiveness if Joe Biden's proposal passed. So I think that the next step is just to be aware that [00:23:00] What matters actually is having a loan plan that takes into account what your life goals are, right?

Travis Hornsby: So if you want to become a law firm owner if you want to start family buy a house Retire at 50 whatever your financial goals are there's a way to do it where the student loans don't have to matter But you have to know the rules about student loans to make them not matter So I would say next steps for somebody would be to check out our podcast the student loan planner podcast You can find that anywhere on spotify itunes, etc Just type in student loan planner and you'll find it and then the other thing is our website studentloanplanner.

Travis Hornsby: com We have a lot of free tools there calculators and blog posts about lawyer specific challenges paying back student loans And the last thing I'll say is that student loan planner What we do is we make customized plans for people and usually we save people a lot of money We charge a flat fee for that service instead of a contingency based fee So people know exactly what they're getting themselves into but our average lawyer client And I'm happy to explain this number if you want that our average lawyer [00:24:00] client has saved or projected You 39, 280 from our consult service.

Travis Hornsby: So we basically do those customized plans and identify things people are doing wrong with their loans and their loan strategy to try to find projected savings and I would say probably nine and ten people we find at least five figures of savings over the life of their loans just because they're doing something wrong with The way they're managing them.

Travis Hornsby: So it's one hour with us saves the average person Like a entry level Mercedes.

Jan Roos: Yeah, I was gonna say that's a decent billable rate, but the other thing too, though, is that there's obviously the financial costs that are the financial savings that people can have, but also just what keeps coming out to me is just this path that people have been getting railroaded on just by default for so many years.

Jan Roos: And if that isn't something that's hanging over your head, I don't think you can put a price on it, and if I had to, I'd personally probably rate that higher than the 39, 000, but it's not like it's a choice, you can get both. So it's actually really good to,

Travis Hornsby: Yeah, like I would just [00:25:00] say lawyers are very smart, and a lot of times lawyers want to read and know the regulations themselves because that's what you went to school to do, right?

Travis Hornsby: The difference between that and what we do is I'm a chartered financial analyst. I used to be a bond trader I did programming in Excel for my job basically and that's a very heavy math based approach and when you're dealing with something like student loans where there's nine different repayment plans and all kinds of different tax filing strategies and loopholes based off of if you live in a community property state with how you would distribute your income to whether or not both spouses have loans there's all kinds of loopholes.

Travis Hornsby: They're really technical, like to fund a nerd out on, but weird to listen to. And it's like you need to know how to model those loopholes. And so that's why this is in a really interesting area for me personally is because bond trading is complex and student loans are, I think make bond trading look pretty easy by comparison.

Travis Hornsby: To be honest every few months, I learned something new about just the way that. A loan servicer might calculate an obscure rule that means savings for people that understand it [00:26:00] And if student loans get super simple one day, then maybe i'll consider doing something different, right? It's like if a state and trust law gets super simple and nobody ever gets divorced anymore, right?

Travis Hornsby: There's no second third families to plan for or state tax to plan for maybe some of our state lawyers friends might change field But but this is so interesting. It's so complex and it's just so fascinating to me how somebody can You Just for example sign up for the repay plan. I'll give you an example two lawyers in New York One of them high earning one of them low earning planning on pursuing public service loan forgiveness The people on the phone they called told him sign up for the repay plan that counts your spouse's income no matter what so their payment for her loans is about three thousand a month because it's counting Both of the spouse's incomes instead She could file her taxes separately Sign up for the pay as you earn plan be getting credit towards forgiveness the same credit But the difference is she's paying 500 a month instead of 3000 a month So it's twenty five hundred dollars every month that they're losing because they didn't review their [00:27:00] details basically So it's just really pretty staggering to see the kind of mistakes people make I could Go on for a while.

Travis Hornsby: I think how many mistakes I see. It's pretty, pretty unreal.

Jan Roos: Yeah. I was going to say, for 2, 500 a month, you want to risk crossing your T's and dotting your eyes yourself or take a, take an hour and talk to professional about it. But yeah, no, I definitely see a ton of potential with this. Travis and obviously I don't have to be the one who's judging that because you've already had a total success with this Yeah, if anyone's listening to this and is interesting, I would absolutely recommend it I've already think we've gone over more subjects and I definitely thought that this podcast would take already So if there's more than where that came from at Travis's podcast, what was the name of the podcast again Travis?

Travis Hornsby: Yeah, just type it in student loan planner anywhere that you listen to podcasts. And then our website is studentloanplanner.com and you can check out all the resources and look at the consulting service that we have.

Jan Roos: Okay, fantastic. And then we'll have that in the show notes for anyone listening. Thanks again, Travis, so much.

Jan Roos: This has been really eye opening for me personally. I'm sure it's going to be eye opening for the guests as well, but really appreciate you taking the time today.

Travis Hornsby: Thank you, Jan.

Jan Roos: All right. And for everyone else, [00:28:00] we'll be back next week at 8 a. m. Tuesday for another episode of The Law Firm Growth Podcast.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Growth Podcast. For show notes, free resources, and more, head on over to casefuel.com/podcast Looking forward to catching up on the next episode.