Freelance Paralegal Services Can Save Small Law Firms Thousands

Law Firm Growth Podcast Episode 44: Getting Leverage on Outsourcing with Jaclyn Foster

Narrator: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Law Firm Growth podcast, where we share the latest tips, tactics, and strategies for scaling your practice from the top experts in the world of growing law firms. Are you ready to take your practice to the next level? Let's get started.

Jan Roos: Hey, everybody, welcome back. To The Law Firm Growth podcast. I'm your host is always Jan Roos. And I am here today with Jacqueline Foster of Jacqueline Foster paralegal services. So I brought, it was actually interesting. Jacqueline's also a listener of the show and she'd ended up reaching out, but I thought it was a very good time to have this conversation.

Jan Roos: We are. currently recording this at the beginning of June of 2020. And we're going through shaking out probably the last months and fingers crossed hope of the the whole pandemic situation and people are either in a situation where you're reevaluating the nature of.

Jan Roos: Work versus remote work or a lot of times people are in a situation where you might have scaled down So I think it's really good to have jacqueline on [00:01:00] for this time. I super appreciate coming on the show jacqueline

Jaclyn Foster: Yeah, i'm very happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jan Roos: All right.

Jan Roos: Awesome. So to get started. We usually like to ask you the question, how did you find out? How did you wind up in the position you are today running this paralegal services company?

Jaclyn Foster: Sure. So for a brief background of my history, I started in my paralegal major when I was about 19 years old.

Jaclyn Foster: And during that time I was interning and working while taking classes online. And I was working for public defender some general practice, small firms and things of that nature. And from there, from that point forward, because of living in more rural areas, I always worked for. Small and solo practices, in the general practice area of criminal civil real estate family all those practice areas and then while I was transitioning into my bachelor's degree, I was freelancing on the side for [00:02:00] These same types of firms personal acquaintances family members just doing some extra freelancing work on the side for them as I Continued with my education in my career.

Jaclyn Foster: I ended up moving to an even more rural area I was originally from minnesota and ended up moving to the middle of nowhere in wisconsin and started to job shop for Law offices and came across a solo practice In a small little, I think, 2, 000 population area when she hired me, I remember her telling me, she's I want to be completely honest with you, I have never received an application through my firm that included any experience in the law office setting whatsoever.

Jaclyn Foster: It was either people in retail or. People that worked as a bank teller and things of that nature and she said I feel like I struggled finding you But I'm sorry, I can only pay you X amount of dollars because that's just my budget in this area So when I started working [00:03:00] for her things were going great and continued working for her and still did some freelancing as I adjusted my own career path going towards The freelance world because I still had this deep craving for bigger cases.

Jaclyn Foster: I wanted appeals and trials and things of that nature, even being in this remote area that I started working with an agency that they didn't, Particularly target law firms. They just ended up with them as clients and over time took on some paralegal freelancers to fulfill those contracts And so I started working with them and all of a sudden i'm working for big and small firms across the nation including a supreme court candidate down in texas and a nationwide firm out of chicago and I just had a light bulb moment over the two years that I was doing that for this agency, that I could not stop thinking how desperately the firms I had worked for over the past seven years of my career that could have so desperately benefited from [00:04:00] what I am doing now as a freelancer versus me as a w two employee.

Jaclyn Foster: Through that I started to develop my own company and I started Jacqueline Foster Paralegal Services because I wanted to go away from the agency setting and really become a professional paralegal service that offers senior level freelance paralegal work to small and solo practices at an affordable rate across the nation, depending if you live in Chicago and you're competing with these regional and national firms what they can offer paralegals that come through there, or you live in a place like I live where there's only.

Jaclyn Foster: 2000 people around you and you have zero access to any education or experienced applicants so I decided to really focus my business around filling that gap for both those settings versus the setting of I can't afford to compete with these big firms that are stealing all of the great senior level experience away [00:05:00] And I can also not have access to those senior level experience paralegals because they just don't exist here.

Jaclyn Foster: So that's where I started my company to fill that gap and it's just been a wonderful turnout on it, on my clients and the gaps that I have been able to fill for these small law firms and solo practitioners.

Jan Roos: Yeah, it definitely sounds like that's, I wasn't it's funny.

Jan Roos: So we work with people all over the country as well, like ranging from, pretty big cities all the way out to, I'm trying to think the most. Rule one that we've had recently was in the Louisiana Bayou. Most urban was in Beverly Hills the last six months, but I never thought about it too, because, it's hard enough to get all this stuff running for yourself, but to think about having to consider a local talent pool in one of those rural areas is something I never really considered.

Jan Roos: So as far as the situation it's funny, the closest probably situation I had to doing this was not A couple years back, we were trying to hire four writers on Upwork and the legal experience was an important category obviously, otherwise it wouldn't be qualified to be doing the writing, but, what's the situation for, the general [00:06:00] freelance economy and like how people are, how are people finding paralegals right now, if not with a company like yours?

Jaclyn Foster: So I think some people are utilizing Upwork and things of that nature, but there, the problem with firms going that route is Upwork and Freelancer and Fiverr and all those areas. It's a one, one and done project that they can find somebody to fulfill for a cheap budget or whatever it may be.

Jaclyn Foster: Otherwise I think that they're finding it through networking. There's multiple. freelance groups on Facebook, LinkedIn job posting and b. com. I think just organically finding these individuals. But the thing with the Upwork and then finding them on Upwork is they're not finding that longterm relationship that, finding a paralegal company that.

Jaclyn Foster: Does this exclusively would provide?

Jan Roos: Yeah. And I guess the goal really isn't ever to just have, so you're some bases covered for a week or two. It really is hopefully to get somebody who's, I'm guessing, freelance part time then [00:07:00] eventually, is that something you ever help people out with transition or full time?

Jaclyn Foster: Sure. So I talk about this a lot with my clients when we're first trying to uncover what they are seeking in a freelance paralegal. I have, actually I was contacted by an attorney out in California that Hired me for one project because he was an immigration attorney, but needed help in a criminal federal court matter that he didn't have the experience to really feel confident in handling on his own and solo attorney out there and so that actually ended up developing into a longer come longer term commitment and relationship between us because He's now realizing.

Jaclyn Foster: Okay. My immigration client is now wanting to get a divorce and I have no family law experience So I'm gonna have to either refer him Out or I can utilize my paralegal that has extensive family law experience to fulfill that and support me through it. He's learning along with me. And so how small firms and solo practitioners utilize and benefit from freelance paralegals [00:08:00] can either be short term or long term.

Jaclyn Foster: And that's the beauty in hiring a company that is going to be a relationship and ongoing relationship, whether it is for short term, Or long term because if it's short term, you never know when it's going to pop up again that you need additional help. So whether you have extreme fluctuations in your caseload, this is the beauty of it and it's the whole point of hiring a freelance company is that there is no commitment or need to fire somebody should your cases Completely plummet for a month.

Jaclyn Foster: Maybe it's you know for COVID 19 or whatever It may be that causes that plummet in your caseload where okay I need to start laying off people because I can't afford to have them twiddle their thumbs in my office so with a freelance paralegal, even if you hire them long term You still have the ability to back off and start utilizing for short term or on demand and I actually posted on LinkedIn It was supposed to be humorous But It's the truth that imagine being able [00:09:00] to go on indeed.

Jaclyn Foster: com and post for a job that says Need paralegal could be seven hours a week to 40 hours a week. We don't know until we tell you needs to be immediately available when we call you and we're going to pay you at an entry level paralegal rate Even though you have 15 years of experience if you could put that On indeed.

Jaclyn Foster: com. I know a lot of attorneys would say that would be my ideal employee, but that doesn't exist. I can't find a senior level paralegal with 15 years of experience that's willing to work on my demand and only on my demand and then sit and maybe not get paid for a month while I'm figuring out my caseloads or there's a lull in between trials or something that You can put them on the back burner and then pull them back when you're ready So that's where that short term and long term can just play together On the immediate need of the client the attorney client It's in their hands on how they want to utilize [00:10:00] my company

Jan Roos: Yeah, that's super interesting too because i've never heard about like that application of hiring paralegals.

Jan Roos: It's almost a more entrepreneurial approach to I guess the idea of council relationship or the referral. It's Hey, look, if you want to put the bill for the work that's going into it, why not? Why not take that in house? That's a good, I've never heard about that before, but that's super interesting.

Jan Roos: And this is something cause we've actually hired a non, I don't talk about this on the podcast a lot, but I run a hundred percent remote company as well. So we have a lot of people that are all over the country that to help us out with the stuff that we do. So I'm a believer, but to people who might be saying, okay.

Jan Roos: Somebody senior for an entry level rate, sounds too good to be true. What's the situation that a lot of people that you hire why are they working part time in a flexible role as opposed to going and getting a senior role somewhere around that?

Jaclyn Foster: So to be completely transparent with the answer to that question is, so I have a team of paralegals that helped me because I can't realistically take on multiple clients across the country all by myself and.

Jaclyn Foster: Service every single hour [00:11:00] that they're needing from us. I only have So many hours in a week myself and then not only that I also am utilizing Paralegals with very specific experience. So I have a paralegal as 14 years just in the oil company. So Oil litigation so she if I have a client that needs help with that I got somebody to back me up with that experience.

Jaclyn Foster: So I always maintain i'm the point of contact but I have this team of paralegals that are, I've met and networked with over the years that I've crafted together to be able to support the demand that we, that my company sees. And the reason they're so willing to be on the side is honestly because a lot of them are stay at home moms that need extra hours, but they can't fulfill a 40 hour job or they maybe they were laid off by their company for and they were cut down to part time hours, but they want to fulfill those extra hours.

Jaclyn Foster: So that's why it sounds too good to be true. But it's also [00:12:00] filling a need for a lot of employees out there and job seeking paralegals out there to be able to work in their field at a less demanding amount of time because I have. Multiple ones to help me fulfill. They're not demanded to show up to work from eight to five.

Jaclyn Foster: So they get that flexibility. And then a lot of people just like to feel like their own boss and that they can work from home and not have to worry about the traffic commute and all of that. So remote work is just very enticing for a lot of people, I think. And that's a main reason why it sounds too good to be true, but it really sounds too good to be true on the paralegal side of things too, because They are filling a need that they have as well.

Jan Roos: Yeah. And it's interesting too, cause you could pull 10 people off the street and say, look, if I could take, cut 20, 000 off your salary, but you never have to come into the office again, would you take it? And not 10 of them would say yes, but enough say yes or there is a market for this.

Jan Roos: So it's pretty interesting to see how this stuff plays out. So the next question on [00:13:00] this as far as like the trends that you might have been seeing me like, obviously we've got a situation where there's some people that are scaling up. There's some people that are scaling down I mean i'd say it's pretty rare But we have spoken to some firms that are actually having their you know, their best couple months ever, you know on some certain practice areas, but What kind of trends are you seeing in people?

Jan Roos: Moving towards something like this again with all the changes that are going on right now

Jaclyn Foster: I think there's a huge movement towards it because one there has been a lot of risk for companies laying off firing and all of the News that you're seeing out there saying about employee rights and getting laid off during a pandemic or what type of office?

Jaclyn Foster: Securities you have to have in place with the pandemic, even if your state is just starting to open or has been open for a month, are you subjecting your employees to a big risk of contracting COVID 19 there's all these factors suddenly that they have to consider. And not to mention they've been.

Jaclyn Foster: Forced to be remote in a lot of [00:14:00] areas for a big amount of time and I am a part of a paralegal group on Facebook It's a great paralegal group that I've met a lot of my paralegals in and that they a lot of them have said You know, my hours were cut to 30 And a lot of them are starting to ask, is this right?

Jaclyn Foster: Can they do that? Is, do I have any rights to sue my employer? And so that conversation is definitely happening behind the scenes on the employee side, that am I, are my rights being stepped on because of COVID 19. That's where I think, it's a big Topic of conversation right now to mitigate those risks of hiring an employee now There's always a need for an employee in your office There always can be a need whether it's for answering phones or scanning in documents or the things that you can't do remotely but even that is being covered by document processing services or Answer phone answering services.

Jaclyn Foster: There's so many technological ways to address Office work at this point and it's I think it's just becoming a huge thing [00:15:00]

Jan Roos: Yeah, and then another thing to add on to that as far as this whole sort of revolution remote work like it seems like you have to be you know You were at the you were doing the remote work thing before it was cool.

Jan Roos: I, March of 2020, but what kind of situation do you find yourselves in? Because I'd have to imagine that there's like a certain level of preparedness with the end client to getting used to having somebody they can't necessarily knock on their door at any time of the day, but also for the people that you might be potentially hiring on, getting used to having working with people maybe in different time zones, maybe, different levels of feedback.

Jan Roos: So how have you helped people get through that?

Jaclyn Foster: So how I, honestly, the way that I help people get through it is my clients, I am their contact. So I am their person. And I personally had this insane addiction when I was working in firm, in the house, in, in the brick and mortar, I had an addiction to my job and I was always accessible.

Jaclyn Foster: I would work 90 hours. That's just how I was. And so [00:16:00] now, with my clients, I'm their point of contact at all times. So they feel that I am their paralegal, which I am. I just use support from paralegals that specialize and their 30 years of experience in civil litigation. I'm going to consult you on helping me with this motion or helping me with this discovery demand.

Jaclyn Foster: So I'm always their point of contact. And I think that all of my clients would say that they feel that I am accessible at any time because of that. I've always had my phone in my hand. I am a 21st century person. So I always have my phone, man. I got my email, my texts, my Facebook messenger, my LinkedIn messenger, my Twitter account.

Jaclyn Foster: I have it all in my hand at every time. And I don't set boundaries like a lot of freelancers do. And a lot of stay at home people do, or they shut their phone off at five o'clock or they're only accessible when it's in my time zone. I have one that is in California. There are three hours behind me.

Jaclyn Foster: And being that he's three hours behind me, sometimes it's seven o'clock at my house, but it's [00:17:00] only, whatever time. And I'm totally okay with him contacting me because I understand that. And that's my company. And that's my belief and value system with my clients is that they are going to have access to me when they need me.

Jan Roos: Okay. Gotcha. So yeah, basically, and once you have the lines are set as far as, when people can contact and stuff, if somebody is thinking about, maybe this sounds attractive. Maybe they just had to get rid of an employee that was full time. Maybe their PVP loans didn't kick in, but if you have a situation where somebody might be considering this and like, how do you advise people?

Jan Roos: Do you say, Hey, look, let's just jump in the pool with both feet or is there like a way that you'd recommend somebody get started with this sort of an arrangement?

Jaclyn Foster: I would recommend having a really in depth clarity conversation about expectations and what you need before just jumping in.

Jaclyn Foster: I have had clients where we had no choice, but to just jump in because the client wasn't 100 percent sure on how he wanted to utilize me yet. And so we've just been And I'm amendable to that. So he's just been utilizing me as it goes and it's just [00:18:00] getting more and more as he's seeing the value in it.

Jaclyn Foster: But to get started with it, it's, you've got to find the right paralegal services company that is going to, first of all, understand that you have your practice and you don't need to change everything about it just to hire. A freelancer they have to adapt to you So I don't have a platform that I say this is what you need to use.

Jaclyn Foster: You have to use box. com That's the only way I will access your files We work together on determining how it's going to best work for the client because I don't want my role To cause more work for them. I want it to be the opposite I want it to be so seamless that all they have to do Is allow me to help them and incorporate into their practice versus them having to adjust to me So I think that's really important with freelancing And finding a freelancer is that you have to find somebody that's willing to do that and isn't so hard about how they Execute your work.

Jaclyn Foster: The other thing is to watch the rates sometimes [00:19:00] freelance You'll see these freelance paralegals offering to do things for 15 an hour But do they really have the experience to help mitigate your malpractice? Mediate You know, really upsetting your clients. So watch those rates. It's, there are things that are too good to be true that are truly too good to be true.

Jaclyn Foster: So if there's a paralegal that's offering to do huge federal work for 15 an hour, that's likely not. Going to be your person because you have to think on their back end. They're also a contractor So they're paying the self employment taxes and all that thing. They're not making anything from that So that gets a little bit nerve wracking And then third I think just trying to find testimonials references Make sure that you can actually connect them to actual attorneys that have utilized their work and they should be if they're good I know at this point I could Have three of my clients give me a recommendation and they would have no problem doing so so Those three things I think are really important.

Jan Roos: Yeah, and going now. This is a funny story [00:20:00] we've also done a lot of Not really like a ton but every once in a while we have projects that we end up going to The kind of the more upwork stuff a lot of times will be development stuff but basically it becomes this kind of funny calculus because it's If it's something that you don't necessarily know how long it's going to take, then you're not really bargaining over the, the rate per hour.

Jan Roos: It's just the arguing of how many hours is actually an hour, that situation where somebody might be, whatever, call it 15 an hour, but in their mind, they're going to mark up the amount of time it takes by four or five times and all of a sudden, okay, their effective rate actually was 60. Exactly. It's very flexible.

Jan Roos: But yeah, I think as far as on the cost savings as well what kind of cost savings would somebody expect versus, the situation of either having somebody as a full time employee or anything else that's comparable.

Jaclyn Foster: Okay, so this is my favorite part of like my entire company is the cost savings and not only the savings But the earning potential from hiring my company.

Jaclyn Foster: Okay, so i've worked really hard at Narrowing down the [00:21:00] national average salary for a senior freelance client Or a senior paralegal, a entry level, and a mid level, and what does that national average look like in a small law firm? I focus on the small law firm component because I'm not going to throw at, I'm not going to compare myself to what a corporate, big, huge company can pay a senior level paralegal because that's the point.

Jaclyn Foster: The small firms can't compete. So to bring in a senior level paralegal, seven plus years, and get them, not only bring them in, but get them to stay long term and not go seek better opportunities, is on average, they're going to cost about 62, 250. I've narrowed that down a year just in salary And so then you have to think that they're going to actually cost you 25 to 40 percent above their wages and their salary amount Because a lot of people especially new to business forget about recruiting costs onboarding employee costs such as state and federal taxes unemployment [00:22:00] insurance workers compensation office space equipment retention and unproductive hours all of those are going to add an extra 25 to 40 percent above the cost So that paralegal that was only supposed to cost you 62 000 a year is now costing you an upwards of 84 So when you compare that to a freelancer And this is how I have made my rate sheets to make sure that i'm staying competitive extremely competitive with going and hiring a w 2 because They are my competition in the sense of a w 2 is somebody that's on site You know eight hours a day and It's that face to face.

Jaclyn Foster: So they're my main competition in the state competitive with them I had to lower my rates to stay below the total cost. So my full time freelance when I mix Paralegal with legal assistant work because I don't like to charge a paralegal rate for a legal like administrative project I've never agreed with that concept.

Jaclyn Foster: I've worked agencies that do that. They do You know, I'm [00:23:00] charging a paralegal rate for just failing to me is not a paralegal task. That's an administrative secretary task. So I take the tool and I've cut it down to a full time freelancer. At my company, if you're going to use her or him 40 hours a week is only 57, 000.

Jaclyn Foster: So you having an, at least over 20, 000 per year of savings, if you use a contractor, because you're not paying those 25 to 40 percent above wages and salary and that's using a 40 days a week, the main savings, in my opinion comes from utilizing them for the, your biggest cases. For your more challenging paralegal work or the things that you either the only other option in your office is for the attorney Themselves to do you need somebody a senior level paralegal that can do the work just as well as you can and efficiently so Like you said earlier somebody might [00:24:00] charge 15 an hour, but it takes them eight hours to do it might paralegal only two and a half.

Jaclyn Foster: So you're saving more that way, you know as well and they I think the the average of Productive hours, somebody had, I found this online that the average productive hours and employee works a day is only three hours per in an eight hour day. And that means you're paying that W2 employees for five hours of unproductive work, whether they're checking their phone, getting coffee.

Jaclyn Foster: Browsing social media, zoning out, talking to co workers. You're paying for those five hours. Whereas on my, the way I run my company is we clock in, we do the task and we clock out. So you're not going to pay for us getting up and taking our lunch break or taking a coffee break. We're focused on that task at hand.

Jaclyn Foster: And that's what comes with a senior level paralegal is that they're. Incredibly good at time management. And so there's [00:25:00] multiple ways of savings, but then you also have to think that it's not a cost anymore. Hiring a senior freelance paralegal is no longer a expense. It's an investment because the work that we're doing can be.

Jaclyn Foster: Ethically be billable to your client. So the firms I have worked for in the past charge one on average 125 an hour to their clients. For my paralegal work, you are getting two times of what you're spending on me back. So if I'm charging $40 an hour, say for that specific task, and you're charging a client 1 25.

Jaclyn Foster: You're making money at that point. So it's a return on an investment versus an expense and then further there is a Issue with small firms and solo practitioners and I know this from first hand experience working in the firm On how productive their day is as well. And how many hours are they able to build per app per?

Jaclyn Foster: Because I, the [00:26:00] national said that for lawyers working an eight hour day, they only bill 2.3 hours of their time. And when you look at the missed opportunity on what lawyers can be billing to their client as well doing client specific tasks versus E filing or delegating work or the things that they're just that are pulling them away from their billable work They're missing out on a 200 per hour rate, or more However, they are charging and that's like over a thousand dollars a day I know that you can't fill every hour with billable work as an attorney but If you could that's a lot of money that you're missing out on so hiring an experienced freelance paralegal with Seven plus and I have my paralegals are 15 to 30 You are finding an area of not only saving you money But making you money because we are efficient and we are very specialized in what we do So I have a freelance paralegal that specifically works federal criminal law [00:27:00] And so if I need help on a federal criminal law case, he's going to be the most efficient person to go to because that's all he does.

Jaclyn Foster: He's so focused on it. He knows how to read through district court rules and, the 300 pages of local rules for each individual district court in one state, so he knows how to right away find the efficient information that is needed. And get that work done in a time frame that saves a ton of money.

Jan Roos: Yeah. I'd also say this too. It's interesting because you mentioned the, okay, we have the billable hours that could ramp up, but this is the other thing too. And this is the flip side of a concept that I've discussed in the podcast a few times before, not one that I invented, but a good one.

Jan Roos: It's the the whole, superhero. Solo practitioner thing. So it's like a lot of times people will focus on, e-filing that thing or making sure that they're, everything's prim and perfect, rather than going out and doing the hard work of, say, following up with somebody who ended up ghosting on a proposal or, putting investment [00:28:00] into, marketing activity or recording a video for Facebook Live or something like that.

Jan Roos: That's not necessarily going to directly. Translate into, billable hours, but is much more likely to fill the billable hours in the future. So it's I think it's super important just to make sure if if you see something that's not moving the needle forward. Okay, cool. There's a direct profit from, maybe billing that out and then having it contracted out to a paralegal, but also, Just a huge intangible benefit to either.

Jan Roos: And it's scary sometimes too. Cause if, we've had the point in our business too, when you have that new hire, and then maybe you just unloaded 15 or 20 hours a week off of your time and you got an empty calendar and it's scary. And it's it's very easy to, just sit on your butt and pretend that you're doing something important when you're really not, you're just doing busy work.

Jan Roos: But when you actually have the empty thing, it's you're not going to, Fire performance by playing candy crush. That's a lot more blatant than when it's staring you in the face So it's a lot harder to hide from the progress that you need to make when you actually have these things handled so I wanted to ask this is a question that came up this is [00:29:00] there's this really funny example and i'm sure you read the book before our work, right?

Jaclyn Foster: The fiesta

Jan Roos: Yeah. So I think so for anyone who, yeah, the four hour work week by Tim Ferriss, just a big remote work lifestyle design Bible. But if you haven't heard of it, it would be pretty surprising if you had it by this point, but good book if you haven't. But anyways, there's an example I thought that was really interesting and it was actually one of the guys, I believe he was an editor at Esquire magazine, and he wrote an article on what you can do without sourcing.

Jan Roos: That was actually written by his written and researched by his outsourced team, which is pretty interesting, but just as an exercise, but I wanted to ask, specific to your practice, just for people, just to see what's out there. Are there any situations where you can think of a really complex case or something that was, high flying or high billing that was able to get done because of somebody that you guys were able to provide for a firm?

Jaclyn Foster: Yes, so recent that's actually recently and I'm going to be filing this motion after I get off the phone with you is a [00:30:00] it's an attorney that does not practice criminal law and Had gotten him admitted to the Eastern District of California Just to file this motion because he is I mean he's never practiced In this court before, let alone filing a criminal motion.

Jaclyn Foster: And because I wrote that motion, a 20 page or 18 page to stay within the role, but an 18 page motion without any supervision by him. And that was the key of it. He could hand it off. I could write it. And it was a motion. It's a motion for compassionate release due to COVID. And. And him to be able to, he had his other attorney friends review it because he just, he didn't feel confident reviewing it himself with.

Jaclyn Foster: With his experience and they all said go ahead file it So it's ready to be filed and he didn't have to really do much work on it if any and so That brings me to one of my favorite quotes, which sounds a little bit conceited But the quote it I can't remember who said it, [00:31:00] but it's always stuck with me that you will never Be rich until you can figure out how to make money while you sleep and it's an interesting concept because you have to be able to always be Generating revenue some way or the other and like you said whether it's through You have to market to get more clients to get more money You have to you know bill hours that you can't fulfill yourself.

Jaclyn Foster: So you have 40 hours a week to give your paralegal your freelance paralegal has another 40 hours a week that 40 hours a week They can do without you Sacrificing your 40 so you could be sleeping and we are so experienced that we can create an 18 page motion and file it and have it granted in a district court without any supervision.

Jaclyn Foster: So that is why I am not an agency and I will never operate like an agency is because you have to be able to trust. Your paralegal like you would a fifth year associate. You have to know that what they're doing is correct otherwise [00:32:00] What's the point if you have to review their work and change it all and put all those hours in you're losing money that way And that's where I separate myself from other companies is that we are all senior freelance paralegals and to be honest my peril my paralegals that I have in my team Could do better work than a first year associate because they have so much experience that you're essentially hiring a second attorney without paying a second attorney you are hiring somebody that's doubling your work product and giving you freeing you up the time to go out and find Quality clients that's going to keep bringing money into your firm and you have somebody behind you supporting that work So that's where I feel you got to learn how to make money while you're there Kicking back and sleeping, whether you decide to sleep, that's up to you, but you should be able to, that's the point.

Jan Roos: Yeah. All right. Awesome. You know what? I think that is a, I don't think we're going to hit a higher note than that. I think that really sums up the whole conversation really well. If somebody has been thinking about this and this sounds like something they might want to try out, what's the [00:33:00] best way to get in touch with you, Jacqueline?

Jaclyn Foster: Best way to get in touch with me is just through, go check out my website, check through my services, what areas of practice that we have and what exactly we can do for you. Each individual practice area is going to be separated out and you can see exactly what we can do on your behalf in your area of practice.

Jaclyn Foster: And then go ahead and contact me and set up a first initial consultation so we can determine exactly what it is that will fit your firm and your, Specific way of practice and how we can best support you because you're the driver and we're just the road map So if you go to my website https://www.jaclynfoster.com/

Jaclyn Foster: com You'll see my contact information my service information and my about information So that would be the best way to get in touch with me

Jan Roos: Okay. Awesome. So yeah, if anyone is thinking about that, absolutely go ahead and reach out to Jacqueline. But yeah, this has been a super awesome conversation.

Jan Roos: Like I hope, a lot of the times people think about, Hey, how can we, shave a penny down a little bit slimmer? And that's not the point at all. It's [00:34:00] you've shown a lot of ways that this can be super additive to people's practice. And again, that's the thing. It's we're not advocating that people set up like, these ghost law firms where just, it's like, if you're just hiring people on Upwork and it's, It's not really high quality work and that's not necessarily ethical or a good idea from a business perspective either.

Jan Roos: But when you have qualified people, it really does multiply the amount of effort that you can put into this stuff. That's your zone of genius. And I think this has been a fantastic example of some ways that people have done it. So thanks again, Jacqueline. I super appreciate the time.

Jaclyn Foster: Yeah. Thank you, Jan. I appreciate being on your show.

Jaclyn Foster: Thank you so much.

Jan Roos: All right. And for everybody else, we will be back. Next week with another episode of law firm growth podcast.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Growth podcast for show notes, free resources, and more head on over to casefuel.com/podcast Looking forward to catching up on the next [00:35:00] episode.