The Key Law To Office Growth Through a Fractional CFO

Using Simple Numbers to 3x Your Take Home Pay with Moshe Amsel

Last week we met with Stanton Law and we broke down the steps he went through in order to go from a solo practice to 10 staff members.

Narrator: Welcome to the law firm growth podcast, where we share the latest tips, tactics, and strategies for scaling your practice from the top experts in the world of growing law firms. Are you ready to take your practice to the next level? Let's get started.

Jan Roos: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the law firm growth podcast. I am your host is always Jan Roos, and I am here with Another record breaking appearance by Moshe himself, fourth time on the podcast with Moshe. It's been actually a minute since we caught up, but his journey has been incredible to watch.

And we're just catching up a little bit on the pre chat, like the kind of stuff that he's been doing with firm lately has been absolutely incredible leveraging a skillset that we're going to go into. But anyway, Moshe, thank you again for coming back on the show.

Moshe Amsel: Jan, it's my absolute pleasure to be here.

And I recently had you on my show. So we got to, we did reconnect behind the scenes, you know, so it's kind of like, Hey, we haven't connected in a while, but we were just together a week ago. But the reality is, is that you were the first person when I decided I was going to work specifically in the law firm industry I had got some law firm clients and I realized that there was a need.

I was going to put my stake in the ground and lawyers were who I was going to serve. I went and I bought all the books out on Amazon to really understand. Well, information's already out there and I started reaching out to the authors and you were the only person who replied back to me and we had a great conversation.

You offered to get on the phone. We spoke on the phone. I even remember where I was sitting in my car, you know, talking to you at the time. So that was really incredible of you. But at the beginning of an amazing relationship that we have we've, we've gotten together in person and have supported each other through our journey.

So that is. Why I love coming here on this show and sharing with with your audiences, you know, my ability to give back to you I'm excited to be here and jump into what's cooking.

Jan Roos: Yeah, it's awesome. It's super funny to you I was actually thinking about this too because I remember we ended up meeting up that place in midtown It was I want to say Shanghai Mong, but we got the black noodles with shrinks.

It's super funny that I remember the dish But but it was, yeah, always good to have you back too. And like, there's kind of this thing I want to keep in mind for the guests too, because this is something that I think is important not only in the podcasting sense, but in the life sense. There is this old quote, I forget where it was from, but it said, a man cannot step in the same river twice because it's the same river, but it's actually a different man.

And I think it's really interesting when we talk about having people back on the show and this trajectory and even thinking about people that you're catching up with in your own life, or even things that are completely static. I have the situation where I'll reread books a million times to kind of see what happens.

But we do have a very dynamic update in place because we were talking about some big stuff on the pre call. And also just to kind of remind you, this is going to be coming out a couple of weeks before motion is going to be hosting the law firm growth summit in a couple of weeks from after launch for this episode.

So we're going to get back to a little bit of that at the end of the pod. As far as what's been happening lately, let's talk a little bit about what's been exciting you in the coaching practice.

Moshe Amsel: You know, it's interesting because when I had you on my show, you were like, like each time we talk, you're in doing completely new things.

And it's the same here. It's not that I changed anything. It's just that who I serve has changed, you know, like, and the business has matured, right? Like the level of firm that I'm dealing with. And also we learned lessons along the way. I mean, every business owner learns lessons along the way. And when I came into the law firm industry, I, one of the things that was like my unique selling proposition is there's a ton of coaches out there, but they're all lawyers who were successful in their firm.

And I can teach you how they did it. The reality is, is that they're not necessarily business background people. And so they're coming at it from, this is how I succeeded. I'm coming at it from, I understand business and every business can be successful, so let's figure out how to make yours successful.

It's a little bit different, but in the process, I did do need to learn a lot and continue to learn a lot about how law firms tick and how clients interact with law firms and all of that. So I think that where I am is almost part of my own growth within, within the industry. So it's really interesting.

that we, you know, that kind of morphed there, but I've always been a numbers guy. And I started as a tax accountant serving law firms. Then I went into coaching and have, have, I continue to have a coaching program where we help law firms grow from low six figures to, to seven figures and beyond. But now we're also doing fractional CFO services for those two and a half, 3 million plus firms who are trying to get to 10, 15, 20 million.

When you're at 20 million, you probably have a CFO on, on staff full time. You're probably not using our fractional CFO services. But in doing that, it has completely changed how I deal with the smaller clients too on the coaching side. So it's very interesting dynamic of, of, you know, how it, how it all plays out.

2023 for me was a lost year for business. And it's interesting, like I'm now publicizing this cause I haven't done it publicly. But essentially, there was a lot going on in personal life, and I took my foot off the gas. And what's interesting is, is that, you know, Newton's law of physics, if an object stays in motion, right, like it needs to have, you know, it needs to have propulsion in order to keep moving.

If you don't move forward with your business, you move backwards. And I experienced that this past year because we did nothing to promote the business. We did not run a law firm growth summit. I mean, we continue to host the podcast. We can, we started a YouTube channel and ran that, but nothing proactive to really grow the business because I have three grown daughters and they all decided to get married in the same year, not the same year, the same three months.

So, I mean, they literally started getting engaged in, in April and by November, all three of them had gotten married. So we made three weddings from August to November and three months. But the same time, those are my three daughters from my first marriage. My wife, now we had three children and we were pregnant with number four.

And we had Connor was born September 28th between. Wedding two and wedding three. So we were pregnant and then newborn in the house, really crazy, crazy stuff going on while also making three weddings. So everyone's like, Oh, you must be broke. And I'm like, yeah, you're not kidding because it's not just the outflow, but it's the lack of inflow that, you know, all marries together.

So we entered 2024 and said, it's time to get back into the marketplace, hit the ground running. And that's why we we've got our law firm growth summit resurrected our fourth one coming up in May. And we'll talk about that at the end, but I've been doing some work with some really large clients. And what I've noticed for the small clients, the big clients, what I've noticed is, is that we overthink how difficult business can be.

And we make everything a problem and everything a big deal when the reality is, is that business is really, really simple. And if you solve the really simple problems, all the other things are going to solve themselves. And my clients, by and large, every single time I'm working with them, at the end of the day, if I had to like say, what's the one thing, common denominator for everybody?

Focusing on the wrong thing. Interesting. And what's interesting is that you think you're focusing on the right thing and you might actually be focusing on the right area, but still the wrong thing. And that to me is like, if we can, if I can just help you figure out what the right thing to focus on right now is, then you can go to the moon.

And we literally have seen people 10X their revenue, triple their take home pay in a matter of six to 12 months. By just making a few changes because they looked at the right things. And if we can spend the next, you know, 20 minutes or so diving into how to do that, I think that would be the best share I can have with your audience today.

Jan Roos: Yeah. I mean, I'm super excited to talk about that for sure. Motion, but I find it super interesting too, because you found the simplicity at the same time that you were going into larger firms. Which I think a lot of people would think it would be the opposite, but I wonder if that's something to say about the fact that you're able to work people directly in the fractional CFO capacity versus over the shoulder and more of like a coaching role.

Like if you're able to enact the changes directly, it's probably a faster cycle time and you can kind of see what's, what's moving and how the needle's going to go, right? I would agree. I

Moshe Amsel: think, I think it's also a level of execution. So with the larger firms, when, even though I'm deal, I'm dealing with them one on one, I'm not actually dealing with just the owner, right?

They already have a leadership team in place. So when we need to make a marketing change, it's the marketing person I'm talking to. And we need to make a sales change. It's the sales director I'm talking to, right? Like, so when I find through the numbers, here's the challenge, here's what we need to do to fix it.

There's somebody to talk to, to implement it. And it's not all falling on the shoulders of the owner. As a matter of fact, I barely talked to the owner in those larger firms. We have a meeting once a month just to go over the high level, like, Hey, here's how is it, how it's going. The reality is, is that at that level, they don't even want to be involved.

They just want to know that somebody is identifying it and that their team is running with it. So the resistance for the execution, which. So many times law firm owners just get in their own way by just, Oh, I know how to do this better, right? Like I know what I need prevents you from taking the steps necessary.

And then your own bandwidth, right? Like if, if you're a solo, forget about it, right? Like it's a whole separate conversation, but even if you have staff, what's interesting is, is in the growth of building your team, there's two levels of growth. The first level is where you're delegating tasks. And when you're the taskmaster, when you're the person that everybody's going to with questions, everybody, you know, like they absolutely cannot work if you're not there to answer their questions and help them through.

That's the first level. So you basically have become a master delegator, but you're making all the decisions for your business. When you're in that role, you cannot grow beyond a certain point. Now, maybe you can get to a few million, But even I think even 2 million is a reach when you're in that type of leadership role, what needs to happen is once you have people working for you, you need to build and flex the muscle of assigning responsibility, not just tasks.

And when you delegate responsibility and people own the problem, and they're clear that this is their problem to solve, they can always come back to you and run their idea by you. Chances are when they're in the weeds doing it, their idea is going to be better than yours anyway. But when they feel like they own it, they feel responsible for it.

That's when things are going to happen way quicker for you. That's when the firm is going to grow a lot faster because you have so many more people that have, that are empowered to make a difference. So that's a critical point. That's actually not one of the places I was going to go in this conversation, but that is a critical point in the growth of firms where if I'm stepping in and a fractional CFO capacity, it's working with the leadership team.

So they already have that in place. And if they don't, then that's the first thing we need to focus on is just, let's start empowering some people. To be in charge of things and be responsible for their numbers. But I do think that when you're working one on one versus coaching can go faster, but you have to have somebody who's completely bought into the solution, right?

Because otherwise we can meet one on one all day long and you're not going to move forward. That's one of the things I love about the coaching environment where we're in a group because you see other people executing on the thing we discussed. They're having results. And you're like, Oh, I guess I should do that too.

So I actually found at the lower end of the model, when we're working with, with small firms, trying to get them from those six figures to the seven figures, solo to attorney on staff or, or solo with help to solo with more help, whatever that transition looks like for, for each person. I found that the best growth happens in a group setting.

And we actually stopped, I stopped offering one on one. I mean, when somebody comes to me and says, Hey, I want you to coach me one on one. I tell them, no problem. It's, you know, 10, 000 a month. You want to pay me that? I'll do it. But I strongly encourage you to pay me 20, 000 a year. And be in the group because you're going to, it's going to be way more valuable to you than working with me one on one.

When we're inserting ourselves as a fractional CFO into the business, it's very different. We're creating dashboards, we're attending meetings, we're, I mean, we're literally in the business on the team. And it's just a solution to a problem, which is you're not yet ready to afford a full time CFO. But the only way for you to grow is to understand your numbers.

Jan Roos: Yeah, I think it was a really good tangent, but I think it's kind of good to understand too, like the different effects of these things. And it's like, it's interesting because I want to get into like maybe some examples or maybe your architecture of how you end up looking and zooming in on these right numbers.

But at the end of the day, I always like to remind people on this podcast, you can have the best plan in the world, but if it's sitting on a shelf, it's not going to get executed, right? The cool thing about some of these CFO clients, it seems this is something that we've also found with some of the larger clients we work, is that You're almost able to select for people who have crossed that mental bridge before they end up getting to you.

But with that caveat in mind, let's talk about the model. So, I mean, as far as what you're thinking about in terms of what could be holding a business back, like what, what are the things you start to look at?

Moshe Amsel: Yeah, so the first thing to understand is that there's only three pieces to running a successful business.

Everything else is, is ancillary to it. Systems, processes, technology, all that stuff is all about efficiency. But at the end of the day, when it comes to the bare bones of the business, you've got clients, you've got your team, and you've got how much you charge for your stuff. The pricing of the pricing structure or set a different way, the value of each of those clients, right?

And if we understand that those are basically the three levers that we need to focus on, it really helps us to block out the noise because ultimately you either have a capacity problem, meaning your team is not able to take on more clients or there's too much capacity there. We have, we don't have enough client.

That's right. So either you have a capacity problem, and I like to refer to capacity of like the people's time on your team. And this is the billers. This is the attorneys, the paralegals, the legal support staff, they're the inventory. So if you think of like a supermarket and I open a supermarket and I put in 20 rows of shelving, right?

If I put one thing on the shelf, somebody comes in, they buy it. I got nothing more to sell. If I fill the shelves and every shelf is full, I can make a ton of money if in the next five minutes. A thousand people came in and emptied my shelves. But if only one person walks in the store and buys one or five or 10 items.

And nobody else walks in, doesn't matter how much inventory I have, I'm going out of business, right? So, if we take that analogy, just real life, like, that's just, I mean, we all go into a supermarket, or maybe we don't all go into a supermarket anymore, but you understand that analogy, well, your legal staff is your inventory, and your clients are the people buying that inventory.

So to have a successful business, you need to have clients coming in. You need to have people to serve those clients. When you have too much inventory, it's going to hurt your bottom line. Cause it's costing you to have that inventory. It's costing you to have those people, but you're not using their time wisely.

So you're not billing enough and therefore your profit margin is going to suffer. If you have too many clients. not enough inventory, your customer service is going to suffer and you're not going to be able to get repeat business. So therefore your clients are not going to keep coming. We can tell from the numbers which one of those is a problem.

And then the third problem is I've got enough clients coming in because my inventory is full, right? Like everybody's working and There's no shortage of work, but we're not making money. Well, that goes to how much am I making per customer, and we need to focus on the pricing side of it. Now, there is efficiencies in there, right?

How are we using technology systems and processes? How efficient is the team? Those efficiencies can fall on both sides of the spectrum, right? You can have efficiencies in client acquisition and how you treat clients. You can have efficiencies in how you serve clients. But those are the extra levels, right?

Like even the most inefficient law firm should be able to achieve a certain level of profitability just from having the right people and the right number of clients. So if we're not, then it comes down to what are we charging? So those are the three big pieces. And if we focus on those pieces, nine times out of 10, maybe 99 times out of a hundred, we'll be able to just looking at those numbers, be able to tell exactly what the problem is with your business right now, today, and, I'll give you an example.

So I'm working with a large criminal law firm and they're, you know, between the five and 10 million range. I don't want to give away too much information. I don't want you to start guessing who it is. I'm going to give you the, the synopsis of the situation. Client came in, wants fractional CFO services.

Currently their profit margin is around a 10%. Okay? Now we say a healthy profit margin is 30 to 50%. So if you have $5 million business, for example, for every million dollars, 30%, you should be earning, you, the owner should be earning $300,000. That means that 5 million you should be earning. A profit or a total pay package, including your salary, your profit, and anything that you're hiding in the business for tax purposes as personal benefit lump, all that together should be one and a half million.

If you're below that, you have a lot of room for improvement. Now is this big range from three 30 to 50%? Because I mean, you could be at two and a half million. So that's a million dollar give in a 5 million business. But how many people listening to this are maybe you're at 5 million and you're like, I'm not taking home one and a half million before taxes.

I'm taking on 500, 000 maybe, but 10%, right? That's where this client was at, 10 percent of whatever their revenue was, is what they were earning. So we have room to make a million dollar difference, at least, actually it was a more than 5 million business. So we have room for more than that. We have room to make a million dollar difference.

And we could do it in a really short period of time if we know where to look. So what we did was, is we dove into their numbers and we took a look. And we looked at what percentage of revenue are they spending on marketing and sales? What percent of revenue are they spending on people service delivery?

And then what percent of revenue are they spending on the rest of overhead? Usually overhead is not a problem. It's possible depending on how much you're paying for rent, stuff like that, where overhead is the problem that I'm not using overhead as one of the three buckets to look at, but that could be a, you know, an issue that usually the problem is one of the other two.

Now your people should be no more than 40%. Of your overall, like, if you think about it, if I want to earn a 40 percent profit margin, then 40 percent is already accounted for. Right. And I know a lot of people are not visual with numbers like I am. So I'm talking and I'm throwing numbers. But if we think about a pie, you'll have 10 slices.

Each one is 10%, right? If you take four slices and say, this is my profit. I have six slices left. How do we divvy that up? So if we say, four are my people. How much is left? There's only two slices left in the pie. You have overhead and marketing. Let's say you have, I'm only going to put three slices to people.

Okay. So we got three slices left. We could divvy that up between overhead and marketing. How healthy firm has a marketing spend of 10 percent of revenue. That's it. If you're growing. It's going to be more. So these are, you have to be really careful with these percentages and these numbers, because it really depends on where you're at in your business.

But when we look at it and we say, okay, in this snapshot, well, it's broken. I can look at the percentage of marketing and sales percentage of people. So in this particular example, we looked marketing and sales, 25 percent of revenue should be 10. If I'm trying to solve a 20 percent problem on the profit side, and 15 percent is being spent extra in marketing and sales.

I just found the elephant. I just found the place that if we focus there, we're going to unlock that value for this client in no time. And we dove in to marketing and sales, and we spent our first 90 days there. Instead of focusing on every piece of the business, We said, this is the problem. This is the one we're tackling.

This is what we're going to find. We found a few things. Number one, we found that they were running PPC, 350, 000 worth of PPC. However, collectively, it only generated a half a million in revenue. It's an awful return, right? And when we dove into the specific campaigns, there was only one campaign out of all of them that had a return on ad spend of greater than 3.

0X. What does that mean? Return on ad spend is how much revenue you generate from the amount you spent. 3X is the bare minimum that is worth running something to. We want 5X. That's what we want. But 3X could be improved to 5X. 2X, there's no hope for. Right? So we looked and we said, okay, immediately cut everything in PPC, except for this one.

And let's start shopping for a new vendor, somebody who can actually take the spend we're willing to pay and turn our 300, 000 of spend into one and a half million of revenue instead of 500. Right. The next thing that we did was we looked at, okay, what is the conversion? What is the percentage of, of junk leads we're getting?

What is the, and, and where are those coming from? Which is part of that. Now we're PPC shopping. Maybe we're targeting the wrong geography. We can get rid of a bunch of those that we're tossing out the door because they just, we just can't serve them. Then let's look at sales. What is the process of getting a lead coming in the door to getting a sale done?

Now, this firm had really good processes around a lot of things and including their entire transition from lead to sales call. I mean, they had somebody chasing after leads like their full time job is just chasing after leads, not part of the sales team, just a support to the sales team. They have a few sales people on the sales team having sales calls.

But what we did was we said, okay, how can we get the sales team to perform better? So we created a new incentive structure. For the sales team and created a customized dashboard for them so that they could see in real time how they're doing in relation to their incentive package. So now they have a dashboard they look at and it says John is 5, 000 away from a 1, 200 bonus.

So now John is super motivated to get the next client in the door. On top of that, John gets an extra 800 if he gets two more clients to pay in full. So they've got this structure where it's incentivizing them to not only close clients, but to close the right types of clients, high quality clients, or get their clients to do something that perhaps they weren't so motivated to do before.

Like paying full at the beginning, which in specifically in this practice, right? When the case is over, you can't get any money from them anymore. So paying in full is, is a really good thing in that business model. We also looked at the pricing and said, okay, we haven't increased the pricing in a while.

Let's just do an across the board, 15 percent increase in the price. Those three changes, implementing the new incentive plan, new sales structure, focusing on the leads with at least cutting the expense right now. But even if we start to look at the future and say, if we start ramping that spend back up and getting better results, what would that be?

And the increase in price we already within the first six months. Completely reversed the profitability, found that million dollars, and the projection for the rest of the year is off the charts compared to what they thought was possible in their annual meeting. Because what do people do? What did we do last year?

Can we do 10 percent more?

Jan Roos: Yeah.

Moshe Amsel: And it's crazy. Like, no, you can do a thousand percent more because if you focus on the right things, there's so much room for improvement. So it's just one example, one client, one snapshot. But the reality is, is that by just figuring out where we needed to focus, we were able to find a problem or multiple problems and introduce solutions, which didn't take long.

I mean, literally within 90 days, everything I just described was implemented and now we can focus on the next thing.

Jan Roos: Yeah. For the next 90

Moshe Amsel: days.

Jan Roos: And there's going to be some more money in the, in the kitty for, for that next thing, whatever happens to be. Not that you want to spend it all,

Moshe Amsel: but

Jan Roos: yeah, but I think there's so much stuff I love about that story.

Moshe. Like, I mean, one of the things that's super interesting is, yeah, it's like kind of like that application of the old you know, 80, 20 principle. I think a lot of people have a black and white view of what's happening, but there's, there's Shades of gray within different marketing that you're doing, even within the same channel.

And it's like, you know, if you could think about what your most efficient marketing was doing and making that part the whole, which takes a little bit of you know, work to get done. I mean, that's, it's, it's a, it's a super simple application of. It's a super simple way to find something that can mathematically just make sense.

I also think it's really fantastic that you're working on the sales side of things too, because a lot of the times too, especially when we're talking about return on investment, marketing is only half of that equation. But when you get the sales stuff really dialed in, you can potentially get so much more juice out of whatever you're already doing.

Like going to the example of that firm, it's like if you're able to cut just the, the bad 80%. It probably wouldn't make too much of a difference on the bottom line just doing that. But when you're also juicing it with getting more performance out of the team and the increased customer average value, I can see why that was turning things around so quickly.

But the other thing that I think is really, really awesome about that is that that could be a completely different playbook. For somebody else that's in a different situation, you know, I'm kind of a man with a hammer a lot of the times, admittedly, I try to solve a lot of these things through, through sales and marketing stuff, but shoot, if they had the wrong people receiving those clients, you know, it would have been a completely different playbook for a firm like that.

And you could probably gotten similar results, right?

Moshe Amsel: Yeah, it's really, it's really interesting because you're right. As a matter of fact, I built out projections for this client that we're talking about. I build out projections for them. And I showed them what a difference. Of changing the close rate of their sales team by 5%, 5 percent is tiny, right?

Like we all, we would all agree that getting a 5 percent increase in close rate is, is really, really small. Right. I was afraid to share the projections with them because it's literally unbelievable, like you literally cannot believe it. Like, if you look at it, you're like, what? There's no way. But the reality is, is that the volume of leads going through that business.

Until we get sales. If we were literally, if we were gonna increase the close rate by 5%, they were going to, I mean, their business was going to increase exponentially, I mean like almost 10 million in revenue and most of it to the bottom line because they have the capacity to serve those clients and they're already paying for the leads.

Which means if we get the sales team to close 5% more, the owner pockets 3 million more. Yeah, it's a crazy, we say out loud. And what's crazy is, is that he would be over the moon excited if that happened. But all of a sudden you're like, you start thinking like is that really possible? There must be some mistake here.

Like, oh man, I guess we probably can't get them to close 5 percent more because of that would be too easy. And that's what we do as owners is like, we start putting problems in the way of the real solution.

Jan Roos: Yeah.

Moshe Amsel: And. How much does it cost to train your salespeople to do better, right? So many people are resistant to that and they don't realize how big of a problem they have because they're not looking at those numbers.

Jan Roos: Yeah. I think it's also good to have your perspective as an outsider too, because these are the assumptions that we rarely interrogate in ourselves too. I think it's really easy to, you know, hit the more spend button or to listen to what our closers are saying on a given day. But like, Honestly, God, it's super funny.

Like, you know, I'll kind of give you a couple things to corroborate that. Like, you know, when we think about the clients that are most successful, we've got clients are routinely pushing an 80, 90 percent close rate on the stuff that we send them. And, you know, those guys never leave. Similarly, we've got clients that have ancillary services, classical into state planning is that people are doing stuff that involves, you know, financial or insurance products in the backend to, they're adding another five or 10, 000 to their closed clients.

It's like, you know, You know, those two levers in different ways are fantastic. But yeah, I mean, honestly, a 5 percent close rate, that could literally be one tactic. If anyone's listening to that and says, how the heck could I do that? Listen to the last 20 episodes of this podcast. I'm sure you'll find one.

We got a different one every week. But no, it's such an important thing, too. And it's just like, yeah, like when It takes sometimes a new set of eyes to, to look at what's possible. And then, you know, it's, it's crazy to see this stuff unfold as people are, are, you know, in, in real life, but it's such a real thing, but there is, yeah, that blocker for people, not accepting that a different reality could be out there, but so this is a fantastic story.

So and again, this is just your personal experience too, just about we are kind of coming at, I know you had someone to call you to the top. They are, but let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the

Moshe Amsel: the upcoming summit. Yeah, sure. So what's funny is, is that when I started the podcast in March of 2019, so I have a podcast called Profit with Law.

So folks, you're podcast listeners, check it out, but don't leave this one, just listen to one more. We also have a YouTube channel profit with law. But we in meeting people who I was interviewing on the podcast, I started to develop relationships in the industry at a very rapid pace. 'cause we were doing an interview a week.

So I started in March and by. August, I had connected with 25 industry experts and I started to have this realization. Like there wasn't, there's a lot of people go to legal conferences, right? But most legal conferences are specifically for the practice area you're in, or they're specifically about practicing law or the hood on by the bar association.

None of them, or very few of them are specifically on growing your business. And then if we look at specifically growing your business, There's a problem with all these in person events. I mean, what if somebody is struggling with being able to leave for four days for a conference? How are they supposed to get the education and the material that they want or need?

So I had this brilliant idea of creating a virtual conference completely and exclusively on the business of law and not law itself. And the first iteration of this, we did, everything was pre recorded. We did over five days, but I invited everybody that I already had a connection with. And I said, give me your best thing.

I mean, let's talk about that. And we did five days of every industry expert we can find talking about what's working for them in their world. And packaged all that into an event. So the first event, it was all prerecorded. People showed up, they just weren't able to consume the content. And that was it. We had a Q and a at night, which was well attended, but we had 2, 500 people register to that first event.

And I said, okay, we're onto something. And we did it twice more since then. The second time it was already during this was before COVID, but the second time was already during COVID. So everybody was going virtual. So we upped our game and made it an actual conference. So everything is live, interactive, vendor exhibit booths, main stage, breakout sessions, a place for people to network and connect.

And that was, I mean, it was stellar. I mean, people just loved, loved the experience. And then we ran the third one. So the second one was in February of 21. Third one was in December of 22. And then we had my last year of 2023. And our fourth one coming up now in May of 2024. But we have an amazing slate of speakers and some really, really good keynote speakers as well that we were able to get.

I'm not sharing any of that here because I don't know what we would have already announced and not announced yet at that time, at the time this gets released. But It's free to attend. I just want to make sure that you understand that what we did was create a product for you that you do not need to pay for.

Yes, you can buy recordings after whatever, but you do not need to pay to attend this event. It's absolutely free to register and it is packed with value. We have almost 40 speakers throughout the and it's only three days, not five. throughout the three days, May 21st to 23rd, and you can go to lawfirmgrowthsummit.

com. I actually don't know if we're going to have a specific URL for you. I didn't even think about that. So you can link that up in the show notes if there is one. But lawfirmgrowthsummit.com is, is the website for, for the event. And we would love for as many of you that can attend to attend, even if you attend just for one session, or even if you jump in there and then upgrade to get the recordings so that you don't have to worry about being present for three days.

There's so much value that we unlock at the law firm growth summit is it's incredible. So I'm super excited about it. And Jan has been a speaker at every single one of them ever since the first one and a promoter. We really appreciate you being behind behind this, but I really believe in what we're doing and we're trying to shift the industry and we're trying to do it with removing every obstacle possible.

So even the financial, like it's free, just come and join us.

Jan Roos: Yeah, I gotta say too, it's such a unique thing. And I really started to see it pick up in the last couple years. But the stuff that you guys have been doing to innovate on the live event architecture, like in a lot of ways to like, like, I've been to a fair share of conferences myself, and it's cool, especially, especially if you don't mind staying out late.

But the interaction that I've seen at this event has been truly unlike any other stuff that I've seen online. It's like, you see, you know, the live chat's fantastic. Probably one of the only opportunities you can get to like literally the panels that we have, like the firepower that we have on some of these is just absolutely outstanding and to get.

Your problems examined by five separate experts in different domains is just incredible. So I can't recommend it enough, guys. We'll get some more stuff with specific URLs. As time goes up, we're logging that down. But yeah, I'm super excited to join you guys on the stage again, Moshe. But I think we are just coming into time.

We're getting to a landing right before the end of the runway right now. So I know you got to jump, but it's been awesome having you once again, Moshe. So for you guys, we'll have some links for that in the show notes. And I'm sure we're going to have a fifth one coming up. And then for everybody else, I'll see you guys next Tuesday at 8am Eastern on the Law Firm Growth podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to the Law Firm Growth Podcast. For show notes, free resources, and more, head on over to casefuel. com slash podcast. Looking forward to catching up on the next episode.