How Barry Goldberg Became California's Go-To Expert on Uninsured and Under-insured Motorist Cases and Grew His Law Firm Through Strategic Marketing

Law Firm Growth Podcast Episode 19: Niche Content Marketing for Personal Injury Success with Barry Goldberg

Check out our episode with Brian Kennel where we spoke about marketing competitiveness

Narrator: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Law Firm Growth Podcast, where we share the latest tips, tactics, and strategies for scaling your practice from the top experts in the world of growing law firms. Are you ready to take your practice to the next level? Let's get started.

Jan Roos: Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Case Fuel Podcast.

Jan Roos: I'm your host, Jan Roos, and we are here today with Mr. Barry Goldberg. Barry Goldberg is a self made success story. He's based in the San Fernando Valley, and he's been on On the list for the top 500 fastest growing law firms, not only this year, but consistently over the past few years. So he's got some very interesting opinions on marketing that I'd really like to discuss.

Jan Roos: And I think a lot of people are going to get some value out of it. So thanks for being on the show, Barry.

Barry Goldberg: Hey, nice to talk to you, Jan.

Jan Roos: So we kind of got the 50, 000 foot view of your story, but would you mind going into a little bit more detail about how you got to the point where you are today?

Barry Goldberg: I always thought of myself as the best lawyer I knew, and I stayed real small, and I always made a living, always was able to [00:01:00] pay my mortgage and car payment, but I wasn't making any money, and that program that I would put myself on as being small, small, small, while attractive, I really wasn't making any money, and there really wasn't any growth, and the lawyers that are able to make money being a solo and maybe with one assistant, I It's really a lot of it's luck and a lot of it is some skill that I, maybe I don't have the threading the needle needle on just the right case at just the right time.

Barry Goldberg: So several years ago, I decided that it was time for me to grow my practice.

Jan Roos: Right. So yeah, that's the thing that we talk about a lot in the podcast. And there's a lot of times we have solos that kind of have this rosy outlook on things. I mean, essentially if you have a solo practice, one, it's something that you're never going to be able to exit.

Jan Roos: And then two, you know, like you mentioned, there's sort of a, you know, you're kind of. A small boat on a big ocean. So if you have a couple of great cases, that's awesome. If you have a couple of months where nothing ends up coming through, or, you know, in the realm of personal injury, like you are, if you don't have anything that's coming to settlement or trial, you gotta be scary.

Jan Roos: And, you know, it's, it's really tough to be that. So, you [00:02:00] know, once you make the decision to make on growing, it's, that's where things tend to really start to take off.

Barry Goldberg: Yeah. The decision really for growth was kind of kicked me in the ass a little bit because I was working on a weekend. And an article came up on LinkedIn or Facebook or something saying that people were hiring lawyers off the internet.

Barry Goldberg: And that year it was something like 12 or 15%. And I was just thinking, here I am on a Saturday working on some brief. If I had another 10 or 15% Hey, maybe I could take a vacation or maybe I could pay for tuition for my kid. And so I said, why shouldn't I get a couple cases off the internet? That's really was the start of my growth plan.

Barry Goldberg: And so I wanted to find out how I could get cases off the internet. That's where it started.

Jan Roos: And, you know, that's a really powerful mindset too, because basically, you know, what you saw is other people are doing this. Why shouldn't I be able to do it? And, you know, taking kind of the commitment to actually seeing what you want and, you know, putting into something that matters for you, you know, in your case, you know, the, the aspects of taking time with your family, spending, you know, [00:03:00] getting able to invest in your child's education, that kind of stuff.

Jan Roos: You know, it's one thing to say that you want something, but it's another thing to have a need to do it. So if you want to take us back to that point, Barry, and what were kind of some of the first steps you ended up taking and then what did you end up breaking through on that got you some traction?

Barry Goldberg: I approached it like a lawyer, not as like a computer guy, and I have, we talked about this off the interview.

Barry Goldberg: I have some aversion to lawyers that are out there saying, hire me, hire me, hire me. So I came from a place where I wasn't going to be too outrageous, and I didn't want to make it look like I was one of the advertising type lawyers. So coming from that place, I read articles by people that were Starting to promote lawyers online and the way that I could compete without spending the huge money that other law firms were spending was to Start a content marketing campaign and I was willing to try that for a reasonable period of time to see if it worked So I said i'm going to content I read some articles on what kind of content how to get it on your website What kind of things to write [00:04:00] about and then I did it that saturday I wrote two blog posts.

Barry Goldberg: I put them out on a Tuesday and a Thursday of the following week. Then I connected them to some social media. And I did this religiously, two blogs per week for about six months. And in that period of time, I started getting phone calls from perfectly good cases, my neighbors, my demographic, the kind of cases I take who have found me online.

Barry Goldberg: And while it wasn't very sophisticated for some keywords, I was coming up first in my neighborhood already in six months, just from blogging twice per week. So I was kind of sold right there.

Jan Roos: Right. Right.

Barry Goldberg: Yeah. And once I saw that it worked, I said, well, what else could I be doing? And I got a profile on Avvo.

Barry Goldberg: I started answering questions on Avvo. I started getting cases from answering questions on Avvo. My first spend, my very first spend, was an Avvo display ad. I want to say it was like 200 a month, and I was sweating bullets because it was going [00:05:00] against what I thought I should be doing, but I justified it because it's just a display ad.

Barry Goldberg: And the guys at Avvo were like, you got to do this, you know, and I made the spend and the very first day that I had a display ad on Avvo, I got a call from a prospective client and I thought it was the guys at Avvo because it was so fast. The same day as I, we started the program and the lady had a very funny voice and it sounded like a guy trying to sound like a woman.

Barry Goldberg: And she said, she said, I just got hit by a dump truck, and I'm very injured, and I'm in the hospital, and I'm like, sure you are, of course you are, and it turned out to be a legitimate case, and I signed up that case, and I eventually settled that case for just under 200, 000, and so I was sold. Now what more can I do to make this happen?

Barry Goldberg: And I didn't want to take over the internet, I just wanted my fair share. So that was kind of my mindset in starting this whole process out.

Jan Roos: So that's awesome, Barry. I mean, some of the things that we talk about like really gel in line. So, and you guys and I [00:06:00] happen to be pretty lucky with the first thing that you ended up trying ended up working out, but two things I kind of want to highlight to anyone who's listening to this is, is one, you know, Barry took the direction and he ended up running with it.

Jan Roos: And then he ended up getting that success and he was able to To branch out into other things that also happen to be successful. So this is a thing. A lot of the times people will try out some sort of a marketing plan. And it happens that, you know, if you'd spent that 200 on Abo and it hadn't ended up working out, well, I'll say for one thing, a 200, 000 settlement on a 200 per month ad display is a pretty darn good return on investment.

Jan Roos: So absolutely hats off to that. But you know, sometimes if you ever try out things that don't work, it's really important to kind of keep your head in the game because you could always just be one more try away from something that's going to eventually get you to breaking through. And then you're establishing some positive momentum rather than some negative momentum.

Jan Roos: I have tried things that didn't work. Let's dig into that a little bit. So what kind of things did you try that didn't work out for you? And what how did this kind of shape in with the other stuff that you were trying?

Barry Goldberg: Once I started to expand my staff, I got real nervous that I'm, that cases are going to dry up and I'm not going to get any more cases.

Barry Goldberg: And so I [00:07:00] started with a couple of, I started with one lead generation company and it was very expensive and they weren't not the kind of leads that I was accustomed to. They were a wider geographic group and also they were less pre qualified. And That was not my recipe for success. And even though the first try at that failed, I did a six months or a year contract.

Barry Goldberg: I did it again. I was convinced that the lead generation has got to work and it was a failure again. So I had to step back and say, why am I being successful online? And it wasn't because I was paying for leads. It was because. I was present where people were looking for lawyers and they liked what they saw.

Barry Goldberg: So that's kind of my philosophy. I stay very local, let my competitors cast a wider net, and then I come in first place in my neighborhood. So I come up first on the map and I come up first on organic search and I get cases that way. And if people go to my website or they, I answer a question that they're [00:08:00] interested in, they want to hire me before they walk in the door.

Barry Goldberg: Lead generation was not that way for me.

Jan Roos: So that actually makes a lot of sense, Barry, because, you know, a lot of the stuff that we do is kind of in the realm of pay per click. And I try to be as candid as possible with clients that a lot of the times, you know, when you're talking about somebody who clicked on an ad that they saw on Google, and even if you have a fantastic landing page, they just wrote a landing page, the, the amount of.

Jan Roos: Qualification that goes into somebody who went through that process is going to be less than somebody who's been exposed to a piece of content. And that's the thing too. I mean, like when you have all these different multiple channels, you're able to kind of compare what could come in from one channel versus the other channel.

Jan Roos: And ultimately it's, it's very impressive because, you know, personal injury law is, is one of the most competitive fields within the entire practice of law. And the fact that you've been able to thread the needle, it's very, very super, super impressive at a cost. That's reasonable to you guys. I mean, I think a lot of the stuff that you've been getting for the content is essentially zero because you're You're producing it for yourself for the most part,

Barry Goldberg: but let me tell you something you have to understand too, that it's just the easiest way for me to spend was with my sweat at equity of writing articles.[00:09:00]

Barry Goldberg: It is not easy to get inspiration and and good content regularly all the time. And I know that Google has changed over time, where there was a point in time where my 400, 500 word blogs were killing it, and then every law firm had it, and so my blogs became white noise and started to drop off. So Google was looking for more like a thousand word or twelve hundred word, highly intelligent, well researched content, and so I put out less content now, but higher value content.

Jan Roos: All right. Now, if I can ask you a couple of tactical question, Barry, first one, you mentioned kind of the challenge of running a content marketing plan and finding that inspiration. So for anyone who might be thinking about implementing a strategy like this, could you kind of take us into the brainstorming process that you use to come up with content that's exciting to people and also relevant for Google?

Barry Goldberg: I don't know if it's exciting for people, it's something that inspires me to write. I have a little key that I tell everybody, [00:10:00] but only a few people have followed my advice. I read the advance sheets every morning from the California Court of Appeal, including the unpublished decisions. Those cases are the cases that are being litigated.

Barry Goldberg: Those are the issues that are being litigated that are hot for personal injury, tort and insurance practice and civil procedure. So that's my main inspiration. I'll find a case. And I will talk about that issue, and then I have pre researched a lot of the content and authority that Google seems to like.

Barry Goldberg: So that's my main way of doing it. The other way is if I'm doing a brief on a case, or there's some issue in a case that's an inspiration, and sometimes I just get a question from a client or another lawyer and think that's what people are interested in. I hate writing about what do I do in a left turn case.

Barry Goldberg: And what if the insurance company doesn't return my phone call? I realize a lot of people, the public is looking for that, but I'm not sure that my posts will come up when [00:11:00] to answer those questions. So I tend to be more technical than most of my other PI buddies.

Jan Roos: So it kind of lends itself to sort of a long tail approach.

Jan Roos: You know, if you can have the one article on the brief that no one's written yet. You know, it's going to be easier to rank for that particular issue than, you know, how to get a personal injury case settled. That's actually super interesting.

Barry Goldberg: I have an article that I wrote in 2011 that I still get calls from other lawyers up and down the state of California and even nationally when someone has a case but yet it involved a California accident having to do with uninsured or underinsured motorists.

Barry Goldberg: I've written more on that topic than anybody. So I get cases. From other lawyers, and I get phone calls from other lawyers at least once a week, not cases once a week, but calls from other lawyers at least once a week on uninsured and underinsured

Jan Roos: motorist topics. Right. So that actually brings us to another thing.

Jan Roos: So let's switch gears a little bit. So, you know, obviously being the biggest. Personal injury lawyer in California is, is a pretty tall mountain to [00:12:00] climb, but you know, differentiation both for people positioning of practices, especially people positioning of practice using a content strategy is, is super important.

Jan Roos: So, you know, one thing is, so, you know, I know we touched on the, the underinsured motorist thing. So that's one niche that you've, you've gone after with the content and the sweat equity that pouring into it. So the questions are, is there anything else that you are targeting and how did you come to the conclusion that this was going to be a fruitful place for you guys to practice?

Barry Goldberg: Well, I've always had an interest in it. So that's number one. In California, the statutes are really poorly written how they intersect about how you handle an uninsured or underinsured motorist case. So even really great lawyers get confused. On what to do because it's just not clear and the even the books written on it the how to books are not very good Every once in a while people come up with an uninsured or uninsured motorist case and then they're searching the internet What do we do on this and my stuff is all is coming up So that's pretty cool The other thing is if I could get rid of all of my cases And have only [00:13:00] uninsured or underinsured motorist cases, I would because those cases don't go through the normal litigation process in California.

Barry Goldberg: They're subject to private arbitration. And I can get these cases done in 90 or 120 days, as opposed to a year or two in regular third party litigation. So I can turn over the cases much faster. Also. The reason I like this area is that there's first party bad faith in California, and there is not third party bad faith in California.

Barry Goldberg: So, on a third party claim, the insurance company can yank you around as long as they want, and there's relatively no repercussions for doing it. First party, if they delay low ball you or do something else, there could be a second case afterwards for insurance bad faith. So I think it's a great area of law to practice.

Jan Roos: Yeah, no, it sounds like you've definitely found a winner there, Barry. And you know, it's great that it happens to gel with the content that you guys are putting out there. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, everyone's got a best case. And if you can figure out a way to get that, that's, you know, why not do anything else?

Jan Roos: So we kind of touched on this a little bit earlier. [00:14:00] So, you know, we've been scaling up the practice for a couple of years and, you know, the numbers that we're seeing on the law firm, 500, you know dang close to doubling the firm almost every single year. If you don't mind me asking, what does the firm look like compared to when you started the solo journey?

Jan Roos: You

Barry Goldberg: wouldn't recognize it. When I started this process, I was a solo attorney with a Part time paralegal who had been with me for many years and then our first hire a full time hire We just had an anniversary. So I know know this fact was four years ago, and it was a receptionist We wanted to answer phone calls And so we wanted to be prompt and one of the ways to convert cases is to have after hours Answering not a phone machine and also when people do call in To actually speak to someone who's going to help them.

Barry Goldberg: So that was a big first hire. That first hire turned out to be a great one because she's now my office manager and she has grown and expanded her knowledge. It is very, very useful. Now we're up to seven full [00:15:00] time employees. And one of which is a senior trial attorney who we hired six months ago. So, or I guess it's more than six months ago now, it's it last August.

Barry Goldberg: So that was a gigantic leap of faith to hire another attorney. Because every case I'd handled for virtually 25 years, I handled every aspect of the case. I spoke to the client every time, I made every court appearance, I took every deposition, I answered every interrogatory myself. So this was a big leap to have another attorney on board.

Barry Goldberg: For

Jan Roos: Yeah, no, I can definitely empathize with that. You know, it's tough for basically any business to add staff. But you know, the thing is that you've kind of gotten to the point where these cases have been coming in more consistently. And that's one of the things we like to talk about as well. So, you know, you have these cases coming in at what point, what kind of metrics are you looking at when you're deciding to bring somebody on?

Jan Roos: And at what point are you deciding to, to expand the staff?

Barry Goldberg: I should be looking at metrics more, and I have some people looking over my shoulder who want to see some of these metrics, but I have a pretty good sense when everybody is [00:16:00] so swamped that we need to add somebody that we do, and one of the things that We did that I saw a log jam occurring in PI was that it's very difficult and time consuming and now expensive to get medical records in a prompt fashion.

Barry Goldberg: So I hired a full time person who does nothing but get medical records for our clients to make demands. And that was an unusual hire because other law firms were not doing that. And I learned from my senior trial attorney who I brought over, we were probably closing cases about 90 days faster than our competitors down the street.

Barry Goldberg: So getting the medical records, having a designated person getting the medical records was a major hire. Sometimes I see that people are too busy. And if that continues on a regular basis, we need to add. I plan on actually drilling down what's called a skew, meaning understanding how everybody's time is exactly spent so [00:17:00] that the next hire I make will fill that need.

Barry Goldberg: But my metrics have been mostly my gut reaction so far.

Jan Roos: Well, gotcha. I mean, there's definitely different ways to run a business and you know, the success of you guys have been posting a date is evidence that going by your gut can work sometimes. So yeah, look, as long as it works, right?

Barry Goldberg: I guess every time I make a hire, I feel incredibly nervous about it and I want to make a good choice.

Barry Goldberg: So it'd be nice to have more data behind it, I suppose. Right.

Jan Roos: Now, as far as the kind of time that you've been freeing up to yourself, so you're hiring these staffs, you know, you're not chasing medical records. At this point, you're not attending a hundred percent of the trials yourself. So what kind of things have you been focusing on Barry with some of this time that's been freed up by hiring more staff?

Barry Goldberg: I'll give you the good news on this first, which is I have really taken to marketing and it interests me and I'm having a good time with it. So that's been my primary Focus is I'm the junior marketing executive of our firm. So I'm working on [00:18:00] marketing every day. I do something, I post something, I plan something, I do something marketing.

Barry Goldberg: That is a radical change from four years ago. The other thing that I do and I enjoy very much is so far, more or less, give or take, I meet with every new client. So I enjoy that. I'm good at it. I can answer the questions. People, I develop a personal relationship with the clients. And so that's been, those are the two main areas of my time on the negative side.

Barry Goldberg: I've become a manager of people and of numbers and bank accounts and things like that. And I don't like that at all. And so eventually I would like to offload that responsibility to somebody else.

Jan Roos: Well, for anyone who's, who's keeping track, if you want to look at some of the people that we've been interviewing in this.

Jan Roos: Season, you know, the focus on marketing is, seems to be pretty highly correlated with success in, in growing firms. So, you know, it's, it's good to hear that from you as well, Barry. And, and, you know, as long as, you know, even better, that's something that you're enjoying your time doing. If you want to take it [00:19:00] back to like, let's say that we had a, you know, Barry four years ago, walked in your office and asked you for, for some advice, what kind of things to the person who might be considering going down this path?

Jan Roos: Would you say as advice for people starting out, maybe some mistakes that you made, that kind of thing.

Barry Goldberg: I think the first and most important part of this is mindset. You have to be willing to do it, stop with the excuses as to why it's not right for you to be growing or making money, and jettisoning old ways of thinking.

Barry Goldberg: So you need to be in the present, you need to do reading, you need to understand what it is that consumers are looking for. I think any lawyer should be found on all of the free directory sites. You don't have to be a computer whiz to put your picture there and explain what your firm does and have your web address and your phone number so you can be in all the places where people are looking for lawyers because you are a lawyer and you want to be found.

Barry Goldberg: So you also can do it. There's two ways. One is you can do it on your own. You can start this process. You can put out content, you can put your name in the directory. [00:20:00] But I think a lot of the marketing companies now are really focused on entry level lawyers with reasonable prices to get them, their website up and working right, to have them either on pay per click or on content marketing and social media.

Barry Goldberg: The return will be there in a very short period of time. So there's no excuse for not doing it. It's either you do it yourself or you pay someone to do it. And if you are not online, and if you do not have a presence on social media, a lawyer today is becoming less and less relevant. And if you want to maintain your relevance as a lawyer, you need to be found.

Barry Goldberg: And so everyone has to make that leap. The people who say, I'm not doing this, they're going to be scrambling in a couple of years. That's what I think.

Jan Roos: Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And we spoke about this a little bit on the pre call Barry, but you happen to have established a pretty good relationship with the marketing companies that you guys are working with.

Jan Roos: So, you know, if you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about how you ended up working with these guys and evaluating whether that they were going to be a good fit, because [00:21:00] You know, Lord knows, there's a lot of people who don't know what they're doing in the world of marketing, but you know, it's almost kind of a, it's rare when we find people that are having a lot of success and you know, the success you're seeing now versus the success with the lead generation company that you guys were working with in the beginnings is kind of an example of that.

Jan Roos: So what kind of process do you guys use in evaluating a partner?

Barry Goldberg: That's not easy. So the first person that I used was someone who I'd read all of her articles about content marketing and she was a very trustworthy. She delivered exactly what she said she would deliver and she was a local, so I could talk to her.

Barry Goldberg: And I felt like we had a very good partnership going forward. As I became more sophisticated, it was my opinion that she was really more of a marketing quarterback than she was executing on things like SEO and graphic design and that sort of thing. So I started looking for people who are really killing it in those areas.

Barry Goldberg: And I had, I thought a pretty good fit before, and [00:22:00] we did notice some increase in our online presence, but for what I was paying, I didn't feel like we were killing it. And the, what I told my SEO company is that if you want my business, I'll pay your price. But I want to win in my neighborhood by two touchdowns.

Barry Goldberg: Okay. And oh yeah, we're going to do that for you. We, you know, we kill nobody. We'll even see any other lawyers, all that kind of stuff. And I got just moderate success. And then my current company that I'm working with basically said the same thing and they were a full thousand dollars less per month.

Barry Goldberg: And so I said, how could I go wrong? And as it turns out, I've just been with them for, I want to say maybe three or four months, they've moved the needle. Like crazy, they know what they're doing. And I couldn't be more happy with my current association with the SEO company. They're doing a great job.

Jan Roos: Yeah, no, that's awesome.

Jan Roos: And then, you know, even though we kind of mentioned from the hiring side, the numbers thing, aren't something that you're in love with Barry from a marketing perspective, you know, you can clearly tell that, you know, you're, you're taking notes on, on what's [00:23:00] happening. And then, you know, for anyone who's, who's kind of evaluating these things from a similar perspective, there's always something that you can look at in terms of, sorry, there's always something that you can look at in terms of, of metrics to compare apples to apples.

Jan Roos: And, you know, sometimes when it's not good enough, it might be time to switch. All right. So we've got a lot of good stuff going on from the marketing side, from the hiring side, what kind of plans do you have for the present and the future Barry, as far as how you're looking to keep the ball moving forward?

Barry Goldberg: Well, there's a couple of things that, that I have, I want to make another hire. I would like to do some of the more traditional marketing that a law firm with a happy, successful client list. should do. So I would like to have like a junior marketing person or even someone who's a receptionist slash marketing person do really quality follow ups with all of our clients.

Barry Goldberg: Not only to make sure they give us reviews after our engagement, but to periodically touch base with them to see how it's going, to send them maybe a little marketing mug or a pen, just reinforce the fact that we are their [00:24:00] go to personal injury law firm. And if you take the number of clients we have and the fact that we aren't really capitalizing on our existing clients, I think we're losing business that way.

Barry Goldberg: So that's what's coming next. The other thing that's coming faster than I would like is that I'm out of office space, and so I have to make some decisions about getting more space. And whether I want to, how much I want to spend per square foot, the current office space I'm in is very expensive. Does it make a difference to my clients when they come to this office or do they, will they be okay with something not as nice?

Barry Goldberg: I don't know. So those are the things that I'm really focusing on right now.

Jan Roos: I'd say that that kind of falls into the category of champagne problems. You know, it's a lot better to worry about how nice of an office space you want next time because the marketing is going so well and you have you're adding staff so fast.

Jan Roos: So we're running out of it then to worry about how to make rent next month, which is the reality for a lot of people that don't focus on this.

Barry Goldberg: And the other thing is, in a year and a half, I'll be the president of the San Fernando Valley Bar Association. And I need to be, my time needs to be freed up to do that, so I [00:25:00] need the office running well.

Barry Goldberg: The other thing that, because I'm so active with the bar association, I talk to lawyers, a lot of them small firms, solo lawyers, all the time. And they need to adopt, in my mind, this idea that if they don't grow, they will die. And just like a shark, if you stand still, you're going to get passed up. And that seems to be the biggest challenge for solo small practitioners, to commit to growth, either revenue and or size.

Barry Goldberg: But standing still creates these incredible problems. I have a buddy of mine who has an employment law practice. Two partners, their revenue's been virtually standstill, but yet they've added personnel who want raises, they have increased costs, and there's less pie for the partners, and so the partners are working harder, billing longer, all of that stuff, eventually that will explode, unless they grow their revenue, and so everyone has to commit to it, I believe that is the fundamental [00:26:00] flaw for solo and small lawyers, is staying the same and having some good cases, Is not a practice.

Barry Goldberg: It's not going to work in the longterm.

Jan Roos: Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more, Barry. And it's, you know, I think it's really good that you're going to be able to get into a position where you're actually managing the bar association, because I think more people need to hear that message now, as far as people that you might be looking to reach out to.

Jan Roos: So you know, who would be good in terms of if somebody wanted to reach out, like, who are you looking to get in touch with and what's the best place to find you online?

Barry Goldberg: First of all, I wanted to be crystal on this, is that when I do any kind of media or sort of personal marketing, I really am talking to other lawyers.

Barry Goldberg: So if other lawyers want to buy me a cup of coffee and sit down, I will tell any lawyer exactly what I've done and so forth. It's up to them to actually do it and only a handful do. So anyone can call me if they want at my phone number. I'm online at www. berry. com. p goldberg dot com. I also can be seen.

Barry Goldberg: We're coming up. We, I play with the Los Angeles lawyers, Phil harmonic. We have a concert at the Walt Disney hall, [00:27:00] also the LA big band of barristers. So come see one of my concerts at, at a bar association event or some other charitable event. And I will answer any question that you have about what I have done without holding back.

Barry Goldberg: Wow,

Jan Roos: that's super generous of you of you, Barry. And I want to say thanks to anyone who wants to reach out. So if you fit that bill by all means, you know exactly where to find Barry from this URLs. And I also want to say thanks for the time. I think this has been super illustrative. It's really cool to see people that are going away from the norm in terms of a lot of the stuff that's going in personal injury, and it looks like you found a path and you're executing on it really, really consistently.

Jan Roos: So it's, it's always fantastic to see how people can do that. All right. So that, that basically concludes our show. Thanks again, Barry. And stay tuned next week. for another great episode of the case for podcast.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to the law firm growth podcast for show notes, free resources and more head on over to casefuel.com/podcast looking forward to catching up on the next [00:28:00] episode.